New to Here-synthetic oil

Start oil threads here so they can be ignored and/or ridiculed by most of us (except for those hardcore few that live for that kinda stuff).
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Here's the place for you to debate what oil is best. Post your oil related topics her so we don't clutter up the other sections. Most people avoid oil threads like the plague.
Subsnowden
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New to Here-synthetic oil

Post by Subsnowden » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:26 am

Question for you Ural vets. I am thinking about running full synthetic oil. Is this a good idea?
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Wanderrad
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Re: New to here

Post by Wanderrad » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:37 pm

Uh oh... Now you have opened a can of worms :mrgreen:
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rivers
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Re: New to here

Post by rivers » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:58 pm

ok, I'll play. Brand new motor? I personally would put on a few thou kms using dino before switching to syn. Maybe switch at a 5000km oil change?
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Re: New to here

Post by Subsnowden » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:27 pm

rivers wrote:ok, I'll play. Brand new motor? I personally would put on a few thou kms using dino before switching to syn. Maybe switch at a 5000km oil change?
Yeah my plan was to switch after break in
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Re: New to here

Post by Peter Pan » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:39 pm

As Scot said a can of worms... I am one of those (not so) old farts who cannot stay quiet to modern custom to use synthetics in everything.

I blame it to Tony at Racewayservices that the break in period of Sophie took until 21.000km. Because innocent Tony applied Jim Pettiti's (rip) oil politics...
first oil "Break in oil",
500km Amsoil synthetic => no further free up process to see.
at 2500km I went to Kawasaki mineral oil...
at 7500km the first time again a slight free up improvement was to observe.
It took lots of minor and 2 mayor seizings at 13.800 and short before 18.000km until the engine came free at about 21.000km.

This comment is not for to rant, but for to advise you that the break in period can take much more then 5000km. Others have commented about 10.000 to 15.000km. The Ural fitting tolerances in production are not at all comparable to Japaneese bikes and the Urals NEED urgently a soft honing process for to obtain the right tolerances before you change to a synthetic oil

As mineral oil tends to form carbon deposits at high temperatures I recommend you after your break in period to clean up the engine with Marvel Mistery Oil (in gas and oil) for the last 500 to 1000km before you change to synthetics.

2 cent of someone who did not want to spill a few cans of fresh synthetic oil on a Saturday afternoon for to change to the mineral oil he was sure of that it would work better then the modern idea of an impatient racer nature.
Jim (above or on the other side of Hades river) don't take it personal, but your ideas related to oils were as thoughtful to accept as your advices related to women.
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8 weeks 12.000km Oregon - Alaska - Oregon, now in CR 39.000km and counting.
With a DIY foam air filter the rig runs well even in tropical rain. The air box looks then like an aquarium. :moto:
Final drives: 1. at 5000km, 2. at 34.000km(+friction plates)
transmission: 1. 40.000km. 2. installed

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Re: New to here

Post by tx2sturgis » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:44 pm

In my experience, the change interval is so short with these bikes, the HP is only around 40 or less, and they were designed with dino oils back in the dark ages, tolerances, heat, etc.

I'd stick with the recommended oil, Castrol GTX, IIRC. Standard automotive motor oil is fine, these bikes don't have a wet clutch to worry about. And the crankcase oil is not shared with the transmission oil.

If you were putting the bike thru some really extreme usage, such as 10,000 kms between changes in the desert heat of the Sahara, then yeah, I might say go with synthetics...for normal Joe Rider stuff, just pour in some dino juice. In the summer heat, you can go up a notch in viscosity.

I have had better luck all around with organic oils....shifting, gasket tolerances...blah blah blah.

YMMV.

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Re: New to here

Post by Subsnowden » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:28 am

Wow awesome info guys and excellent points raised. I'll stick with standard oil.

T minus 2 days
Jon
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Re: New to Here-synthetic oil

Post by Snakeoil » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:05 am

I struggle with the point that seizures are a part of the break in process. Seizures are either the result of a poor design, abuse (lean, retarded, advanced, no cooling, lugging, etc.) or incorrect fitment of piston to cylinder. Sorry Sven, don't mean to argue, but that's pretty much based part of the basics.

Syn oils have lot of urban legend associated with them. One however, I have seen happen and tend to agree with. Syn oils, real syn oils that is, do impede ring seating. I think that their film strength is just too damn good. Break in your engine with mineral based oils and once your rings are seated, switch to syn if you like.

Syn oils bring higher temp properties that are good to have in air cooled engines or any engine that sees high temps. They also tend to be less acidic over time, which lend themselves to bikes that are part of a collection and sit more than they are ridden. The added life cycle is probably a good thing, but from the viewpoint that when you do regular oil changes per the OEM recommendations or sooner, your oil has degraded less than if you were using mineral based oils.

That all said, I believe that if you use the proper oil for the application, meaning the right additives for your type of engine and change it regularly, any quality brand of oil will provide long and reliable engine life.

I was a user of Amsoil and now only use it in a vintage sports car and a modern HD because I bought it by the case. I run Cenpeco 20w50 in flat tappet engines that require that viscosity. I run Rotella T in all my other vintage bike engines that use 10w30 or 10w40 oils. None of the vintage bikes have a filter in the modern sense except for my '66T120R and that bike had a cartridge filter retrofitted when I restored the bike.

There are members here who run brand X and claim their engines are fine. That's their choice and you'll never see me argue about oils.

Here is what you need, IMHO for our engines ,which are splash lubricated

Sufficient Zinc additive for the flat tappets
Good film strength due to the splash lube system
Good heat transfer due to being air cooled
Corrosion inhibition because many are run in the winter or are stored in the winter.
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Rob
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Re: New to Here-synthetic oil

Post by Nimbus4 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:31 pm

I would definitely get past the 1st service interval and valve adjustment before going with Syn. I am a freak about oil and what to use in what machines. I became CASI Certified Lube Tech year ago and keep up on that.

You can research with absolute proof that Syn's are better that Conventional lubes.

I used Valvoline 20w50 until 2500 km's, I changed my oil at 500km's/ 1500km's/ and at 2500 km's Again I am a freak that way, I wanted to see if any shaving or other issues were happening.

In my area I new that it was 100% up to me to fix and maintain this rig, no Ural support around.

Oil is cheap compared to engine failures. I my line of work I have seen the vehicles from the 80's- 90's to present, we rarely do engine swaps or engine work anymore. It is harder and harder to find real machine shop anymore. When I pull a valve cover off a car they are usually spotless inside and they go 200-300,000 miles with ease. That can't be argued.

I also firmly believe that this is important when most don't change oil on time and do not operate in ideal conditions. This is when the modern lubes shine and out do Dino oil.

If someone uses Dino oil, that is fine and will work well. The difference is you must be diligent on changing and checking.

I now use 0w40 Castrol in the winter and Royal Purple 20w50 Motorcycle oil the rest of the time. I am not stating Royal Purple is the best, the Manager at one of the parts stores I work with called and told me he had 20 plus qts at $299 a qts so that was a no brainer.
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Re: New to Here-synthetic oil

Post by Peter Pan » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:34 pm

Snakeoil. no discussion needed I agree with you... Point on seizing will show the truth on the day I will have to pull the cylinders. Meanwhile I just top off once in a while more often then supposed to be done. (my first boss used to say that over 70% of the engine jobs that came into his shop were caused by tinkering owners. Nearly none caused by normal wear.)

The point were we agree is:" the engine has to be fitted to the right fitting tolerance before changing to synthetic oil. "

My tip to Subsnowden is, to give time to time and not hurry too much. He will see by himself that from oil change to oil change the engine becomes better and the usable torque band wider and the engine temperature lower. In my eyes 5000km is way too early 10 to 20.000km sounds more reasonable to me.
He has to take into account his surrounding and riding conditions too! (desert climate calls for synthetic earlier)

Myself I was thinking about it since 25.000km when it happened the first time in Sophie that I did not feel a new improvement against the oil change before. If I would get locally synthetic Kawasaki 20-50 I would do it (we get only 10-40 synthetic from Kawa). Synthetic Motul 20-50 has not convinced me much in transmission (passes through all seals) and I am about to go to normal synthetic gear oil there.

Enough I have to work a bit more today.
Good luck to all and sorry for to have converted the original post into an oil thread...
Opinions about oils are like tastes, style and fashion...
Have a nice day. (I will have to hunt new spark plugs beside the job.)
Sven
Sophie Travelair
Patrol 2013 a Jim Petitti special.(RIP)
8 weeks 12.000km Oregon - Alaska - Oregon, now in CR 39.000km and counting.
With a DIY foam air filter the rig runs well even in tropical rain. The air box looks then like an aquarium. :moto:
Final drives: 1. at 5000km, 2. at 34.000km(+friction plates)
transmission: 1. 40.000km. 2. installed

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=> Attitude makes the difference!

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Re: New to Here-synthetic oil

Post by Tin Man » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:48 pm

Indications are that it has more to do with changing the oil when needed and less about what type of oil is used. :foilhead:
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Re: New to Here-synthetic oil

Post by harryball » Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:24 pm

Let me clear all this up for you.

Break in on standard dino juice - I think we all agree with that point.

From here it seems to layout like this:
Squeeze your own dino juice........Don't need Syn.....Don't care.......Use Syn.........Use only nano-balls with genetically engineered fake dinos.

I fall just to the right side of "Don't care" and use Valvoline 4T Motorcycle Oil. It's clean, it lubes very well, my 2008 runs quieter with it, my gear box shifts smoother and quieter with it and IT MAKE ME FEEL BETTER.

The truth is, as others have pointed out, use good juice, change it often, avoid "funky" cures to non-existent problems like the weird green (literally GREEN) oil that was in my rig when I got it. Honestly, it probably quieted down because I got that stuff out, not because I put the Syn juice in. But again, I'm happy so where's the problem?

FYI, my rig has +1000 miles on on the clock since arrival and change to syn, no oil leaks.
---
2008 - Tourist - "Ursula" / 30mpg / 32k as of 9/2017
2010 - Patrol - "The Rattler" / 32 mpg / 53k as of 9/2017
K28 tires on both rigs, pusher gets about 6000 miles give or take.
3/8" toe in and 2.5 degree lean
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Re: New to Here-synthetic oil

Post by Peter Pan » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:15 pm

Harry, was your rig from Racewayservices.
Dear Jim loved his green juice appearantly even over his Amsoil.
Sophie Travelair
Patrol 2013 a Jim Petitti special.(RIP)
8 weeks 12.000km Oregon - Alaska - Oregon, now in CR 39.000km and counting.
With a DIY foam air filter the rig runs well even in tropical rain. The air box looks then like an aquarium. :moto:
Final drives: 1. at 5000km, 2. at 34.000km(+friction plates)
transmission: 1. 40.000km. 2. installed

The Avatar are 2 rice grains stating life's essence:
"The most important you cannot see!"
=> Attitude makes the difference!

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Re: New to Here-synthetic oil

Post by harryball » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:27 pm

Peter Pan wrote:Harry, was your rig from Racewayservices.
Dear Jim loved his green juice appearantly even over his Amsoil.
Nope, got mine from http://www.motorsportssuperstore.com/ in Alabama. Never actually met the PO, they turned up with the rig I wanted at a price we could agree on so I went and got it. Good experience, I think I worked with Jacob, Good experience only positive things to say. It was discovered that someone had listed it on Cycle Trader without the shop owners knowledge... so he was completely surprised when I called to ask for details and pictures. He was riding it and I actually went to pick it up from the Barber Vintage Festival where he had to find another ride home.

I vividly remember draining the engine oil and it looked too green to me, but when I drained the tranny oil it was bright green, greenest oil I've ever seen and it drained a little too slowly for my comfort, seemed thick. I don't know if it was good/bad or indifferent, but I was surprised when the Valvoline 4T dramatically smoothed and quieted the tranny.
---
2008 - Tourist - "Ursula" / 30mpg / 32k as of 9/2017
2010 - Patrol - "The Rattler" / 32 mpg / 53k as of 9/2017
K28 tires on both rigs, pusher gets about 6000 miles give or take.
3/8" toe in and 2.5 degree lean
Robert
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Re: New to Here-synthetic oil

Post by chaos2 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:44 pm

the green oil might have been Brad Penn, popular with the classic-muscle car crowd with it's high zinc content. It's named after Bradford, Penn.
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