New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

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Mr Wazzock
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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by Mr Wazzock » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:42 pm

RC20 wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:21 pm
Can you post the link to the 2017 troubles.
This might be it. (?) There may be other(s) :o

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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by Snakeoil » Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:48 pm

I know others have already ID'd the piece as a bearing cage. I'll take it a bit further and say it looks like a ball bearing cage. That is good news because the big ends are roller bearings.

And it would not surprise me if that piece was from a previous failure and just happened to finally find its way to the drain plug magnet. But that's just wishful thinking and you need to take a look.

I suggest you bite the bullet Ernie and replace every bearing in the engine with a good quality bearing. I put Quest (Nachi, Japan) in my engine after replacing the crank and it is electric motor smooth and damn quiet.

I've not been into a 750, just my 650 and Van always said the 750 is harder because of differences in how things are fit (press versus slip if I remember right). But it can't be rocket science or Ivan would have been working at the Soyuz factory instead of the Ural factory. With aluminum cases, heat his your friend and most press fits can become drop in place fits with a little heat.

Gotta give you credit for trying yet another RPOC after your long tail of woe with your first venture into Engineering by Ivan.

Hope the bearing is the only issue and you end up with a sweet running engine. Oh, one more thing. When you get the crang out, do a careful inspection of the slingers and I suggest that you flush the bejezuz out of the big end bearings with min spirits and then once you are sure they are squeaky clean, repeat with motor oil before reassembly. Squeeze bottle with min spirits to push it thru the bearings thru the slinger port is not a bad idea. Use new min spirits and a clean basin. Inspect what comes out, filter it thru a rag or paper towel and use it again until the filter shows nothing.
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Rob
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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by RC20 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:10 pm

I spent the last 30 years replacing bearings on motors (mostly)

The best bearing out there is SKF (these days, Fafnir was as good until Timken took them over)

If you really want the best bearing, then an SKF hybrid with ceramic ball is the way to go!

High likely hood of no issues with other bearings but if you want as close to sure guarantee SKF is the way to go.

I actually tried a Toyta ceramic ball bearing (unusual application) and it would randomly scream (forget the name of the company, start with a T but its not Toyoto, tracked it down and they do own it). For reputed Toyota quality I was disappointed. It did not fail as such but a screaming resonance on a fan next to the Admin area was not a good thing.

The good thing about motor bearings is you can hear them going bad. Bad thing about internal engine bearings is you can't initially and when they go bad its really bad.
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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by WEGUNTER » Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:32 am

I watched Van do it and it is way harder than it looks. The crucial part for me would be getting that front end bearing pressed on (without damage to the bearing) and then pulling the crank and bearing into the case so that the crank is perfectly aligned. Having a set of Lutz's crank tools or Van's homemade tools would probably be essential. On the 650's, Bill Glasser's site shows the crank with bearing being knocked in from the rear (instead of pulled in from the front of the crank). The risk of crank misalignment and damage to the front end bearing are high.

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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by rougaroo » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:40 am

+1 to Bill.

The biggest DO NOT DO THIS, KIDS! is using any force to put the crank back in. Both the 650 and 750 cranks are multi-part cranks - not a solid piece of metal. Hammering them into place can pinch them and throw them out of alignment.

If you watch either Van's or Lutz' videos, the way to install the crank is to gently pull it into place. No sudden blows.

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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by Emoore » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:31 pm

WEGUNTER wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:48 am
Piece of bearing cage.
That's what bike shop mechanic said.... But it runs. No odd noise or vibration
Ernest
2012 Ural T Olive (Roulette)
2011 Patrol (OTTO)
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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by Emoore » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:34 pm

stagewex wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:16 am
That sucks.
I found several long metal pieces during a fluid change years ago. Turned out to be the little clip that makes your neutral light work, one of the most ridiculous and primitive set-ups on Urals. The rivet (why is it riveted?) had come loose and the engine just chewed it away. I couldn't find it with a boroscope to confirm but at the same time my neutral light stopped working too. This is around 2010 (I have a 2007) and it never affected the bikes performance (HaHa, using that word) at all. Just chewed-it-up and spat it all out by the next oil change. Your piece looks similar but seems to have more dimension.

I couldn't find all the pictures of the pieces but lets just say there were about 7 or 8 of them this size:
IMG_5654.JPG


No neutral light for almost 10 years but who really needs one on these beasts anyway. It wasn't worth opening-up and installing this obscure $5.00 replacement part either. How stupid of an idea is this?
IMG_2357.jpg


That is until this past Summer when I needed a new clutch. Now neutral light works and it's kinda weird seeing it. I just ignore it.

I say run the bike as is unless you can get some satisfaction from the seller/dealer or whomever you bought it from.
But it would be hard to say they could know anything about it happening or about to happen.
IMG_2361.jpg
The neatural light works damn it. But the piece does look like it. Once I get home tonight I will try to post a better picture.
Bike mechanic down the road seems to think it was a piece of the bearing cage...... But if that was the case it wouldn't run as well as it does
Ernest
2012 Ural T Olive (Roulette)
2011 Patrol (OTTO)
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Wake Forest, NC

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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by Emoore » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:36 pm

rougaroo wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:48 am
And the gearbox milk isn't really a problem now that you've changed the oil. Water comes in down the speedometer cable just make sure to throw some RTV in the cap before you screw it down to make a watertight seal and you're good to go there.

Rougaroo
Thanks, took your advice..... RTV, Ivan's little helper...lol
Ernest
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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by Emoore » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:42 pm

RC20 wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:21 pm
While I am sorry for your issues, not sure why you would think getting an older one would be better? 2017 I would call bad luck, a 2011 is more like playing craps (much higher chance of issues)

Can you post the link to the 2017 troubles.

Clearly its a do not run condition as you will just do damage.
I own a 2012, love it. Figured if I could work on the 12, I could work on the 11.
As far as the 17 goes, everything was bad.
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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by Emoore » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:46 pm

WEGUNTER wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:32 am
I watched Van do it and it is way harder than it looks. The crucial part for me would be getting that front end bearing pressed on (without damage to the bearing) and then pulling the crank and bearing into the case so that the crank is perfectly aligned. Having a set of Lutz's crank tools or Van's homemade tools would probably be essential. On the 650's, Bill Glasser's site shows the crank with bearing being knocked in from the rear (instead of pulled in from the front of the crank). The risk of crank misalignment and damage to the front end bearing are high.
Appreciate the offer, I'm contacting the place I got it from to see what they are willing to do...... My only thought is, why does it run so well with this missing....shouldn't there be a noise or vibration.....????
Ernest
2012 Ural T Olive (Roulette)
2011 Patrol (OTTO)
Yamaha FZ07 ( My need for speed )

Wake Forest, NC

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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by Emoore » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:56 pm

Snakeoil wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:48 pm
I know others have already ID'd the piece as a bearing cage. I'll take it a bit further and say it looks like a ball bearing cage. That is good news because the big ends are roller bearings.

And it would not surprise me if that piece was from a previous failure and just happened to finally find its way to the drain plug magnet. But that's just wishful thinking and you need to take a look.

I suggest you bite the bullet Ernie and replace every bearing in the engine with a good quality bearing. I put Quest (Nachi, Japan) in my engine after replacing the crank and it is electric motor smooth and damn quiet.

I've not been into a 750, just my 650 and Van always said the 750 is harder because of differences in how things are fit (press versus slip if I remember right). But it can't be rocket science or Ivan would have been working at the Soyuz factory instead of the Ural factory. With aluminum cases, heat his your friend and most press fits can become drop in place fits with a little heat.

Gotta give you credit for trying yet another RPOC after your long tail of woe with your first venture into Engineering by Ivan.

Hope the bearing is the only issue and you end up with a sweet running engine. Oh, one more thing. When you get the crang out, do a careful inspection of the slingers and I suggest that you flush the bejezuz out of the big end bearings with min spirits and then once you are sure they are squeaky clean, repeat with motor oil before reassembly. Squeeze bottle with min spirits to push it thru the bearings thru the slinger port is not a bad idea. Use new min spirits and a clean basin. Inspect what comes out, filter it thru a rag or paper towel and use it again until the filter shows nothing.
The engine has sighns of being rebuilt now that I look at it closer. There is a word left written on the left jug and right written on the right jug. Apparently someone has had these off before. now the question is was this piece leftover and it finally made it to the magnet or is this a new piece from a bad rebuild. I have these questions out to the place I bought it from,but. no answer so far......
Ernest
2012 Ural T Olive (Roulette)
2011 Patrol (OTTO)
Yamaha FZ07 ( My need for speed )

Wake Forest, NC

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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by Emoore » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:58 pm

I'm thinking of shipping it off to a pro for rebuild....but money is an issue...
Ernest
2012 Ural T Olive (Roulette)
2011 Patrol (OTTO)
Yamaha FZ07 ( My need for speed )

Wake Forest, NC

John Wayne - Life's Hard. It's Even Harder When You're Stupid.

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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by rougaroo » Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:00 pm

Bill's did the same thing up in the Blue Ridge - just a lack of power and a kind of out-of-balance vibration. Those main bearings are pretty stout and can take a lot of abuse. But when they ultimately fail it is a lot more costly than what you're facing right now.

As Bill said, take off the cylinders and see if you get any lateral play in the rods. If there isn't any big play, then all you're facing is the end bearings. If you do have rod play, then it is time for a new crank as well as the main bearings.

At that point, like the monkey said while peeing in the cash register, "This seems to be running into money."

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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by WEGUNTER » Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:48 pm

What Bob said. I think I ran round for about a year with the rear main bearing going south. i did start to hear a whirring sound out the back end and thought it was the clutch. Not sure what "pro" you are talking about. If I were you I would get on Facebook and give Van a shout. he is about a 7 hour drive. Other option would be ship to Terry or out to Heindl but it will cost you. Not sure if you have a place to work on it, but I would determine what is wrong first. Get your self a stethoscope and give a listen to where the trans mates up to the engine. If it is a rear main bearing then you might be able to hear it.

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Re: New to me 2011 Patrol, still the same bad luck.....

Post by stagewex » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:00 pm

"... My only thought is, why does it run so well with this missing....shouldn't there be a noise or vibration.....????"

Maybe a leftover from a rebuild if indeed is is that part? Seems thicker that was in mine so the engine had no problem eating is and spitting it out in smaller pieces. Jeez, they've been leaving sponges and surgical tools inside folks for years now.
And running really well, maybe it's like when they tell you your spleen has to come out as in "you don't really need that organ anyway".
Stagewex

Current Herd all running amok:
2019 Honda CRF450L (Elec Start)
2008 Vespa 150S (Elec & Kick Start)
2007 Ural Patrol (2WD, Elec & Kick Start)
2006 Honda "Big Ruckus" PS250 (Elec Start)
1991 Honda XR250L (Kick Start Only) *NOT running amok, out for Bottom & Top-End Rebuild.
1986 Yamaha BW200ES (Elec & Kick Start)

List what you "have", keep the others in your precious memory bank.

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