What controls the automatic timing advance?

Are ya having a problem with your rig? We'll try to help. Share your tech tips and experiences here. Dr. Billy Glaser, author of the "Unofficial 750 Ural Service Manual" site myural.com, is moderating this section.
Forum rules
Here is the place for you to ask questions about or share your experiences about servicing or repairing your Ural or Dnepr. Please post topics concering modifications or accesories in the "Modifications and Acessories" section. Please post oil related questions in the "Oil Threads" section.
User avatar
Marco
Party Member
Party Member
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:19 pm
Location: Minnesota

What controls the automatic timing advance?

Post by Marco » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:14 pm

If my timing is not advancing automatically with ducati ignition, would I need a new ignition or something else to fix this?
Last edited by Marco on Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2012 Gear Up
19,000 Km

"My mother never breast fed me, she told me she only liked me as a friend."
Rodney Dangerfield

User avatar
S 854
Commissar
Commissar
Posts: 4919
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:44 am
Location: Big Sky Country

Re: What coil can I put on 2012 gear up?

Post by S 854 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:29 am

Back in ‘06 when I was contemplating my Ural purchase I remember seeing a Harley coil used to “upgrade” the rather primitive ignition system that came stock... now whether a Harley coil will replace the more modern ignition—that’s way above my pay grade...but it may be worth looking into...

IIRC... Crawfords offered this coil on their website...maybe give ‘em a call...
'07 Arctic: The Russian Raucous Ship

Things turn out best for the people who make the best of the way things turn out...

User avatar
darkhorse
Comrade Colonel
Comrade Colonel
Posts: 326
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:02 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: What coil can I put on 2012 gear up?

Post by darkhorse » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:55 am

I had a Harley coil on my 650 with a Type 4 ignition before I upgraded to the PowerArc.

What ignition is standard on the 2012 models? If it is a Type 4 or Type 5 you may be okay with the Harley coil. If it's a Ducatti your options will be different.
2001 Ural Deco Classic
PowerArc Ignition
Mikuni VM28 Carburetors
Inertial Supercharger

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.

User avatar
Marco
Party Member
Party Member
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:19 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: What coil can I put on 2012 gear up?

Post by Marco » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:03 pm

It's Ducati
2012 Gear Up
19,000 Km

"My mother never breast fed me, she told me she only liked me as a friend."
Rodney Dangerfield

User avatar
VWK75S
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2019
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2019
Posts: 4726
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:25 am
Location: Sebago Lake Maine

Re: What coil can I put on 2012 gear up?

Post by VWK75S » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:50 am

Marco wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:03 pm
It's Ducati
Keep in mind the Ducati CDI puts out a 300V pulse to the coil.
John
The Ural's made Maine a much bigger state.

2009 GearUp 145,000kms
2007 Retro 25,000kms
1991 VWK75S 110,000miles

User avatar
Marco
Party Member
Party Member
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:19 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: What coil can I put on 2012 gear up?

Post by Marco » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:25 am

That's pretty strong right?
Is the coil the source of the automatic spark advance at higher RPM's?
2012 Gear Up
19,000 Km

"My mother never breast fed me, she told me she only liked me as a friend."
Rodney Dangerfield

User avatar
S 854
Commissar
Commissar
Posts: 4919
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:44 am
Location: Big Sky Country

Re: What coil can I put on 2012 gear up?

Post by S 854 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:40 am

I would think the advance would come from the rotor (thats the way it works on mechanical units)... the coil only does what it’s told when it’s told...
'07 Arctic: The Russian Raucous Ship

Things turn out best for the people who make the best of the way things turn out...

User avatar
Marco
Party Member
Party Member
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:19 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: What coil can I put on 2012 gear up?

Post by Marco » Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:58 am

so from the hall sensor?
2012 Gear Up
19,000 Km

"My mother never breast fed me, she told me she only liked me as a friend."
Rodney Dangerfield

User avatar
S 854
Commissar
Commissar
Posts: 4919
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:44 am
Location: Big Sky Country

Re: What controls the automatic timing advance?

Post by S 854 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:36 pm

That’s what I’m thinking, hopefully someone with the understanding of ATE (All Things Electrical) will chime in soon...
'07 Arctic: The Russian Raucous Ship

Things turn out best for the people who make the best of the way things turn out...

rougaroo
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2019
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2019
Posts: 3798
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:58 am
Location: NC

Re: What controls the automatic timing advance?

Post by rougaroo » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:08 pm

The coil only stores, transforms, and releases electricity for the sparkplugs; the rotor and Hall sensor only measure the static moment when the coil is triggered. Advance used to be controlled mechanically with springs or weights or vacuum, but with electronic ignitions the advance curve got written into the black box. On Ducati ignitions that is - literally - in the black box that is attached under your seat.

I've never heard or read of a way to reprogram the Ducati or change it to a different curve. I'm sure there must be a way, since it has to be installed somehow, but I've never seen it.

Rougaroo
2003 Tourist - lotsa upgrades
2004 Troyka - work in progress

User avatar
VWK75S
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2019
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2019
Posts: 4726
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:25 am
Location: Sebago Lake Maine

Re: What controls the automatic timing advance?

Post by VWK75S » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:13 pm

Marco wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:14 pm
If my timing is not advancing automatically with ducati ignition, would I need a new ignition or something else to fix this?
The CDI adjusts the timimg based on the pulse train from the hall sensor;
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=53377
John
The Ural's made Maine a much bigger state.

2009 GearUp 145,000kms
2007 Retro 25,000kms
1991 VWK75S 110,000miles

rougaroo
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2019
Hero of the Soviet Union - 2019
Posts: 3798
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:58 am
Location: NC

Re: What controls the automatic timing advance?

Post by rougaroo » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:00 pm

Great video! But let me phrase what you said a bit differently so folks don't think the Hall sensor actively does anything advance-wise. The Hall sensor is just an on/off switch that tells the CDI where the spark starts (at idle with no advance added). As rpm's increase, more advance has to be added to allow the fuel-air mixture to burn efficiently. The rate of that spark advance is called the advance curve. Advance curves aren't linear, either, but have slopes of various sorts.

It is those slopes that get programmed into the CDI and let it take the on/off signal from the Hall sensor into a formula like (Hall sensor coming on at 2300 rpm's = fire at 28 degrees advance) instantaneously.

But back to your basic question: if you are truly getting zero advance, you'll need a new Ducati black box. Unless you can find one used, you may be better off cost-wise switching to a PowerArc or C5 ignition. Check the threads on those.

Check your timing to see that the spark is coming on at the right time at idle, then run the bike up to 2000-2500 rpm's. If you do it slowly while you watch the timing mark with the timing light, you should see the mark disappear to the bottom of the hole as the rpms increase. (The spark is advancing ahead of the timing mark).

I'm pulling this from memory and may be wrong, but I seem to remember that full advance on Urals is 36 degrees. There are a number of charts that folks have done here on Steeds that'll tell you for sure.

Rougaroo
2003 Tourist - lotsa upgrades
2004 Troyka - work in progress

User avatar
Snakeoil
Order of Suvarov
Order of Suvarov
Posts: 4430
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:45 pm
Location: Upstate NY

Re: What controls the automatic timing advance?

Post by Snakeoil » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:58 pm

The EI units I've dealt with work opposite of how a mechanical Auto Advance Unit (AAU) works. The black box wants to be at full advance and this is overridden by the programing which suppresses the advance based upon the indicated RPM. So and engine at rest (start-up) will have the advance fully suppressed to some min advance limit. As the RPM's climb the suppression is removed allowing the advance to increase.

The rub with this kind of system comes in when the battery is weak. If the battery volts drop below some threshold required by the EI, the black box cannot suppress the advance and it goes to full advance. This is tough on the electric starter because the engine kicks back when starting with full advance. For kick start bikes the same effect is felt by your leg.

Not sure if the Ducati ignition works this way or not.
Regards,
Rob
Proud member of the Peanut Gallery
2000 Ural Tourist
40 Pilots, 122 Mains
Before you say something stupid, always ask yourself, "What would Harpo say?".

User avatar
Marco
Party Member
Party Member
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:19 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: What controls the automatic timing advance?

Post by Marco » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:34 pm

Hey, thanks Snakeoil and all others,
I got a new timing light and did as you said. I've timed it a few times now and always the same. timing mark in hole and just barely moves down with rpm's up to 3000. Can still see it plainly in hole.

It looks like I need a new CDI for 2012 GU with ducati ignition, or a power arc ignition.

If you have one to sell or know where a good place to get one is, please let me know.
Thanks
2012 Gear Up
19,000 Km

"My mother never breast fed me, she told me she only liked me as a friend."
Rodney Dangerfield

User avatar
Albuquralque
Order of Victory
Order of Victory
Posts: 19683
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:46 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Re: What controls the automatic timing advance?

Post by Albuquralque » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:21 pm

I'd have a hard time understanding how you could get the engine up to 3000 rpms without the timing advancing at all.

The bike wouldn't run.
"Put a little gravel in your travel"


Previous Urals Owned: 2004 Wolf, 2006 Tourist, 2006 Patrol (TOW), 2006 Patrol (TOM), 2014 Patrol

Post Reply