Overheating on rides that were fine in other years

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shiftless
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Re: Overheating on rides that were fine in other years

Post by shiftless » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:07 am

My IR thermometer had died when I tried to look when this trouble first appeared. I suspected dead batteries, obtained the button cells, nothing, so went in trash, need a new one. Will take a few days.

Dug out my timing light, hasn't seen the light of day since the later 80's. Rained yesterday, I don't do running engine work in garage.

Idle adjustment screw head on carb away from sidecar was difficult in past, now unworkable, not able to adjust until replaced, so balancing didn't get far.

I am aware of others having petcock issues, that is why I tried prime position as a surrogate for manual petcock for troubleshooting.

I remembered the spec 45 ft/lbs for heads being wrong, looked around and found older bikes used much less, found references to 40 ft/lbs, would use less in future. Head torque and vale settings seem to attract a variety of opinions.

I need to also get the time to ride back roads with a new IR thermometer, and see if only overheats on highway, because that really indicates total fuel flow issue, or possibly timing not advancing. Currently I only suspect highway, because if I let it cool for 10 or 15 minutes, it has not overheated again when riding the rest of the way home, even if stuck at a light or two. With a new IR thermometer I also want to just let it idle with fans on, because I have measured in the past that the fans should let it idle indefinitely without overheating, so again would show if trouble is only at higher speeds. I need more information, and that just takes time.
Still like Charlie Chaplin's 1940 talkie "The Great Dictator"; had to abandon it as the inspiration for the theme of my Ural's paint scheme. People can't seem to tell satire from support. Too much public education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Dictator

2011 Gear Up from V.T. CYCLES, Pwr Arc Ignition, sprayed USMC 383 Green w/blacked engine/exhaust

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VWK75S
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Re: Overheating on rides that were fine in other years

Post by VWK75S » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:10 am

What's the max operating temp on the PA?
John
The Ural's made Maine a much bigger state.

2009 GearUp 145,000kms
2007 Retro 25,000kms
1991 VWK75S 110,000miles

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Re: Overheating on rides that were fine in other years

Post by stagewex » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:32 am

From the old motherboard when it was acknowledged that the torque-spec was wrong in the manual and folks were pulling their Cylinder Head bolts right out to the engine block, keeping the helicoil insert industries in business: Use 32 to 35 foot lbs, really doesn't need much more.Over 40 and you are in the Red-Zone.

For some reason even though this was a known issue when I bought my 2007 Patrol new it seemed to take years for IMZ to actually change the information in the Owners Manual. I don't know why since it was the dealers that got stuck doing the warranty work. Maybe that's why a bunch of them dropped the brand? It's basically the same old engine with efi slapped on and prettier paint, what does it say now for the newer models specifications?
Stagewex

Current Herd all running amok:
2008 Vespa 150S (Elec & Kick Start)
2007 Ural Patrol (2WD, Elec & Kick Start)
2006 Honda "Big Ruckus" PS250
2006 Yamaha TW200 (Elec & Kick Start)
1995 BMW K75 (Elec Start)
1991 Honda XR250L (Kick Start Only)
1986 Yamaha BW200ES (Elec & Kick Start)

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Re: Overheating on rides that were fine in other years

Post by rivers » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:18 am

stagewex wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:32 am
it seemed to take years for IMZ to actually change the information in the Owners Manual.
It did. IMZ has never been keen on revising new manuals and torque was wrong for a lot of years. My 06 and 011 book was wrong claiming 40-45 ft-lb. The 650's required much less torque. From the 2000 manual: 22-30 ft-lb. The 014-18 books call for 36.9 ft-lb. I've always used 35 on my 750's and never had a prob. Think lotsa folks still use 25 with no problems?
Joe
014 GU
"I'm lost but I'm making good time."

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Re: Overheating on rides that were fine in other years

Post by Flattop » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:14 pm

Did you check the air filter? They pull air from the inside out so taking off the cover only shows the carb side. Remove the filter for inspction. Your description of how the performance changed over time makes me think of the air filter.
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Re: Overheating on rides that were fine in other years

Post by stagewex » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:28 pm

Only thing is that Shiftless implies that he has had these 'blowers" on his rig from the beginning... because of overheating and only recently it's getting worse. Am I getting that right?

Personally other than the one's you can get and bolt-on a Big Twin HD I have never heard of anyone installing blowers on a Ural. Not to say someone hasn't but rather if you absolutely "HAD TO" to, then there is a more underlying serious malfunction going on.

Is is overheating only because your accessory add-on gauges say it's overheating?
Stagewex

Current Herd all running amok:
2008 Vespa 150S (Elec & Kick Start)
2007 Ural Patrol (2WD, Elec & Kick Start)
2006 Honda "Big Ruckus" PS250
2006 Yamaha TW200 (Elec & Kick Start)
1995 BMW K75 (Elec Start)
1991 Honda XR250L (Kick Start Only)
1986 Yamaha BW200ES (Elec & Kick Start)

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Re: Overheating on rides that were fine in other years

Post by LaCabra3 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:09 pm

You can buy a remote hand held temp gauge from Harbor Freight for around $25-30.00 to see how hot the heads are heating up. Just point laser and read temperature. I have a stock 2010 Patrol with similar miles and don't have problems in Arizona weather. How do the plugs look?
LaCabra3
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Re: Overheating on rides that were fine in other years

Post by shiftless » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:24 am

I ordered a new IR thermometer, so better information in a few days.

Did clean air filter, however if it clogged, would expect less air, so running rich, not lean. Also, I understand that these carburetors do not add gas with the throttle, they admit more air, and that air pulls in more gas. This would keep the air/fuel ration about the same if the air filter or exhaust clogged, because the reduced air flow would in turn reduce the gas drawn into the cylinders.

Failure of the fuel filter (already checked, was fine) or vacuum petcock (or vacuum lines to the petcock) might allow some fuel flow, enough to run around town, but perhaps not enough for the highway. Testing by running on prime was hoped to eliminate the possibility of restricted fuel flow, however my initial test was ruined by unusually bad (slow) traffic caused by numerous accidents, then recent bad weather.

It didn't help that my Tundra had a part of the shift linkage rust out and break, and Toyota wanted to sell the entire linkage from steering column to transmission, so after searching online and at wrecking yards, I just fabricated the rather simple part. My Ural runs good enough to use, although I know the fans are covering up (mostly) the symptoms, not correcting the problem, and I can allow a few minutes to cool and expect to get to my destination. My Tundra was stuck in reverse, luckily in my own driveway. The truck took my time and attention for a bit.

Retarded timing is another possibility, found the tool, now need to paint the mark and run the test.

The fans were installed after several years, and are rarely on in normal use. If I got caught at a couple lights in a row, or otherwise stuck in really slow traffic, then the fans were activated (and prior IR thermometer testing showed worked well at idle with bike not moving at all). The overheating is recent. In the past, several years ago, when riding in summer with a passenger and loaded trailer on rolling hills, I once felt it heating up and backed off the speed (was trying to outrun a storm) from 60-65mph to 50-55mph, and even with that weight/speed/hills combination, the temps went back to normal and I rode to my destination (even had it on the trailer before that rain hit hard).
Still like Charlie Chaplin's 1940 talkie "The Great Dictator"; had to abandon it as the inspiration for the theme of my Ural's paint scheme. People can't seem to tell satire from support. Too much public education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Dictator

2011 Gear Up from V.T. CYCLES, Pwr Arc Ignition, sprayed USMC 383 Green w/blacked engine/exhaust

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Re: Overheating on rides that were fine in other years

Post by Mr Wazzock » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:34 pm

shiftless wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:16 pm
This overheating was not an issue in earlier years on the same shift and same roads, saw it some last year, seems to be getting worse over time.

... feel the loss in power, feel the occasional mild sputter become harsh backfire, simply pull over in the shade, wait 10 minutes or more, and it runs fine again.
Just had a thought, this could be an electronic or electrical failure. I presume it's got electronic ignition? The sputter / backfire suggests failing sparks. Ignition amplifier or coil failing when i gets hot.
Mike H
2016 Ural cT, in glorious terracotta
(aka Oranzhevaya Opasnost, "The Orange Peril")

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Re: Overheating on rides that were fine in other years

Post by shiftless » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:25 pm

Has been a while, other issues sometimes get all the attention.
Have fancy new IR Thermometer in sidecar, will get readings if overheats to compare sides.
New set of plugs, should not need to replace the iridium ones, but cheap to try, and not bad to carry clean ones when I have experienced fouling.
Re-torqued heads to 35 ft/lbs, only had to adjust one valve slightly.

Timing mark barely starting to appear in view port, not centered, so clearly a little bit early. I know timing can cause overheating. How many degrees does the view in the port represent, and how much off does it take to cause overheating?
Still like Charlie Chaplin's 1940 talkie "The Great Dictator"; had to abandon it as the inspiration for the theme of my Ural's paint scheme. People can't seem to tell satire from support. Too much public education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Dictator

2011 Gear Up from V.T. CYCLES, Pwr Arc Ignition, sprayed USMC 383 Green w/blacked engine/exhaust

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