Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 1 FIXED!!

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Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 1 FIXED!!

Post by phliparoonie » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:54 pm

Thinking at one time (no wisecracks) that the old type V ignition was at the root of 'Charlie's' problems, I got a new one from :bow: Gene, and installed it after all the head stud hole drama was over. The newest Ducati ignitions could be called Type VII. I read through and pondered on JohnBG's post on his Ducati install before ordering the part. He showed parts I didn't have in my bag of parts and I got nervous. Another quick call to Holopaw revealed that Ducati had "improved' the design in 2013. He directed me to the IMZ website to download the exploded parts diagram. Go to http://live.uralcatalog.com/details/3979 and download the diagram. Here it is for your viewing pleasure.
Type VII Ducati ignition Diagram_17_0012.jpg
The biggest difference is that there is no slotted cup like in John's install like what would be the Type VI, nor like what I took out of the old Type V. There is a slotted plate and a whole different mounting system. I did salvage the thin gasket that was behind the cam shaft plate and re-usedit.
old cam shaft base seal_02 sml.jpg
John's post showing the removal of the old Type V system and removing the gas tank is still a good guide. Here's the link to that: http://sovietsteeds.com/forums/viewtopi ... i+ignition

The biggest issue I had was deciding where to hang the components, as the mounting bracket for the coil was so different than the Type VI, and there were no install instructions. I decided to use the empty space under the seat (no battery...it's in the hack trunk) for the computer and the coil. It was necessary to remove the seat bracket to get things in there and bolted down.
seat plate removed to install coil and controller sml.jpg
I drilled two holes in the seat frame plate that matched the distance between the mounting holes in the coil and back from the end of the frame channel. In case you were wondering, the new coil will NOT fit back in where the old Type V coil was under the front cover.
coil mounting bolts sml.jpg
ducati coil mounted under seat sml.jpg
I mounted the computer controller on the plate where the battery used to set, clinching it down with 3 cable ties when done.
ducati ingniton computer in battery compartment sml.jpg
The spark plug wire on the left side was j-u-s-t long enough to reach the plug, with plenty for the right side, as the left jug is aligned ahead of the right jug.
left spark plug wire tight fit sml.jpg
right spark plug wire plenty sml.jpg
There is a LOT of harness to snake around and get snugged up on the U-channel.
ignition wiring routing_02 (1) sml.jpg
This is where I originally attached the ground wire for the system. I re-thought that as it is a shared ground with the flasher. Wonkiness with new LED turn signals caused the ignition to cut out. I put back in the incan bulbs and all is well.
ground connects to existing ground bolt in frame sml.jpg
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Last edited by phliparoonie on Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
It is important to keep an open mind. But not so much that your brain falls out. Carl Sagan
I am old, but I'm happy. Cat Stevens
It's a tractor, not a Ferrari. Holopaw Gene

2004 Tourist "Charlie" 25,036 km - 18/04/24
stock: pipes, carbs, airbox, fuel petcock, tractor seat
new/add: windscreen,hack headlight,4 head stud holes,pistons,rings,starter,FD splined hub,clutch actuator bearing, clutch arm,donut,drive shaft,Ducati ignition,tank xover dscnect

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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 2

Post by phliparoonie » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:18 am

Being a little over-thorough, I removed the tank (AGAIN) and moved that ground to the top engine mounting bolt. May not have been necessary, but I feel better.
ingition grounded to engine bolt sml.jpg
Remember the space where the Type V coil used to go? Not wanting a gigantic loop of wiring looping in front of the engine, I decided to put the connector from the brain to the sensor in that space, but had to "Ivan" a stay to keep it in place. Just happened to have the mounting plate for a flush mount ceiling light fixture that fit exactly. That also allowed me to re-use the old cover plug. I just slit it down the side with a razor blade to remove it and it is good to go.
light fixture bracket holding in power connector where old coil sat sml.jpg
Installing the new sensor and interrupter plate took some head scratching a stubby Phillips screw driver. You will note the parts diagram shows two spring washers #25 AND #26. I though one would go on each side of the interrupter plate between the bushing and the plate. NOPE. Using the one behind the plate pushed it too close to the pickup in the sensor...it touched. So, that was left off. :bow: Gene said it would be fine. There is just the thinnest of gaps between the plate and the magnet. Probably around 0.001...couldn't get a gauge in there, but I was able to shine the shop light from behind, and there is paper thin gap of light all around. Here's what I used to fit the new cam shaft seal into the cam shaft plate.
cam shaft seal seating_01 sml.jpg
cam shaft seal seating_02 sml.jpg
I also re-cycled the old spark plug wire cover plugs, slitting the side to remove them and using a little Red RTV to fill the holes.
old plugs with red sealant sml.jpg
old spark plug wire plugs in place sml.jpg
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Last edited by phliparoonie on Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
It is important to keep an open mind. But not so much that your brain falls out. Carl Sagan
I am old, but I'm happy. Cat Stevens
It's a tractor, not a Ferrari. Holopaw Gene

2004 Tourist "Charlie" 25,036 km - 18/04/24
stock: pipes, carbs, airbox, fuel petcock, tractor seat
new/add: windscreen,hack headlight,4 head stud holes,pistons,rings,starter,FD splined hub,clutch actuator bearing, clutch arm,donut,drive shaft,Ducati ignition,tank xover dscnect

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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 3

Post by phliparoonie » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:03 am

So, now it's time to set the timing. I centered by sensor bracket in the adjustment slots, set the flywheel at TDC and rotated the interrupter so that one slot was centered on the sensor. Hit the starter, and there was no running. Moved the sensor CCW (following the rotation of the interrupter) and it caught but did not run well. Few more tries moving the sensor CCW until it was at the limit of the adjustment slot. The $35 Harbor Freight timing lite (no tach, but has advance dial) still showed the timing mark (painted white) low in the hole. The only thing left to do was to loosen the bolt on the int'ter plate and move it CW a bit. Finally found the sweet spot with a nice even idle and then ran the throttle up to what felt like highway speed. Rotated the dial of the timing light until the mark centered and it was at 18 degrees advance. Textbook. Time for a test ride.

The rig moved through the gears with nice response and power, until I got to 51 mph. It started to surge and vary rpm's. Speeds less than 50 were even and smooth. Also, I could NOT get it to go faster than 55 mph even at WOT. Never has that problem before, running at 62 for long distances on the slab. Thinking had gone about the timing wrong, I re-centered everything and went the other way. Absolutely no go. Then I started moving the int'ter way CW until the timing was advance to 18 degrees at idle. It ran (how I don't know), but still surged around 50 and no faster thatn 55. This is not right.

Back to orginal timing settings and went into town to pick up the crossover tube quick disconnect fitting at The Bike Shop. Still not running right at speed. Stopped at AutoZone to get new NGKBP6HS plugs. Pulled the old ones in the parking lot, and they were completely sooted up. The air mix screw is set at 1-1/2 turns out, as always. Put in the new plugs gapped to .040, and took off. OK in town but out on the highway, same surging at 50+. Of course, The Bike Shop had ordered the wrong part so back home again to sort things out.

This is showing the timing mark in the center of the hole
timing mark at center sml.jpg
This shows the relationship between the int'ter and the sensor at that mark. Note the position of the int'ter slot and the sensor...plate moves CCW
senor in interruptor gap spins CCW sml.jpg
This shows the condition of the new plugs after 50 km's
left and right plug after 50 km sml.jpg
Obviously the right cylinder is not sparking when it should and I am running out of ideas.

SPARK: I don't think the new ignition system is faulty. But here's some thoughts I have.
1)Could the plug wires be going to the wrong plugs? Is there a "left" and "right" wire coming out of the coil. It is not marked. There are no instructions.
2) Here's another thing I noticed with the timing light. The pickup for the light has an arrow on it that is (according to the instructions) supposed to point toward the plug. During setup I had it attached to the left plug wire and got good readings. Since the right spark plug was getting fouled, I put it on that wire and GOT NO LIGHT. In desperation I put the pickup on the right wire with the arrow pointing away from the plug, and it worked perfectly. Is this a clue
3) Is the sensor too close to the int'ter plate as it spins around?

FUEL: New fuel lines. No in line filters. Fuel delivery from re-installed vacuum petcock is sufficient.

AIR: I recently replaced the ozone deteriorated John Deere corn planter branch tubes. Those had the smooth end portions (about 2 inches each end) removed so that the last pleat was mounted to the carb and air cleaner. Very tight ad a PITA to get back on, but they would NOT get kicked off the carb perch. The smooth ends are sloppy on the carb perch, so I cut half of that material off, cut it in half to make a strip, removed a sliver of material to get a tight butt fit and placed it inside the remaining tube end. Nice tight fit. However, the tubes are nearly 12 inches long, longer than the original tube.
right branch tube sml.jpg
This is how the left on looked back in August. It is probably about 4 inches shorter.
left branch tube length before replacement in August sml.jpg
Has the excess length messed up the air delivery? If so, why only unburnt fuel on the right side?

As always any insight is appreciated. Hope the description of the Type VII install is helpful to others. Don't know why the plug pic is in here twice :?
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It is important to keep an open mind. But not so much that your brain falls out. Carl Sagan
I am old, but I'm happy. Cat Stevens
It's a tractor, not a Ferrari. Holopaw Gene

2004 Tourist "Charlie" 25,036 km - 18/04/24
stock: pipes, carbs, airbox, fuel petcock, tractor seat
new/add: windscreen,hack headlight,4 head stud holes,pistons,rings,starter,FD splined hub,clutch actuator bearing, clutch arm,donut,drive shaft,Ducati ignition,tank xover dscnect

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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 1

Post by URAL CT » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:44 am

Check that your plug wires are installed properly & secured to the coil. Are the carbs balanced? What size jets are in the carbs? We fixed a similar issue on a friend's bike last weekend, first...the air filter was over oiled, second...had different size jets (pilot & main) between the 2 carbs. Good thing I had a selection of spare jets we were able to choose from :mrgreen: . Also what other mods have you done to the rig? Exhaust mods?
To check for spark, pull the plug out from the suspected "not firing" one, GROUND THE PLUG!!!, attach the plug wire & check if you're getting any spark on the plug. Make sure the spark plug is grounded before you hit the starter button, otherwise you may ruin your new ignition set up! Good luck!
CT
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Plano, TX

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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 1

Post by Albuquralque » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:48 am

It is a wasted spark system, meaning that both plugs fire at the same time, so no you don't (or can't) necessarily get the plug wires mixed up.

Did you check for good spark across the plugs? Pull them out, ground them, and and hit the start button and compare the spark between the two plugs.
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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 1

Post by phliparoonie » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:25 pm

CT...no other mods, carbs are the same as Day One, paper/foam filter (clean), how does not grounding the plug ruin an ignition? will check spark this afternoon
Darrell...will check spark this afternoon

thanks
It is important to keep an open mind. But not so much that your brain falls out. Carl Sagan
I am old, but I'm happy. Cat Stevens
It's a tractor, not a Ferrari. Holopaw Gene

2004 Tourist "Charlie" 25,036 km - 18/04/24
stock: pipes, carbs, airbox, fuel petcock, tractor seat
new/add: windscreen,hack headlight,4 head stud holes,pistons,rings,starter,FD splined hub,clutch actuator bearing, clutch arm,donut,drive shaft,Ducati ignition,tank xover dscnect

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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 1

Post by URAL CT » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:58 pm

phliparoonie wrote:CT...no other mods, carbs are the same as Day One, paper/foam filter (clean), how does not grounding the plug ruin an ignition? will check spark this afternoon
If you have an electronic type ignition & I believe the Ducati is, it could damage the electronics/module. Some have a way of discharging the energy via a ground gap within the coil. My old /2 BMW which uses points, have this. I currently have a PA on my Ural & it is fully electronics & could cook the module if I do not ground the spark plug when I remove it & fire it up. Maybe your Ducati type(???) ignition is immune to this dunno. I've always grounded the spark plug before I check for spark, even when I had the Ducati (original) system in it. YMMV. Layng the spark plug on the cylinder is good 'nuf! You're just looking for spark (hopefully blue) at the plug end, not running it anyways. :mrgreen:
Also, have you cleaned the carbs lately? Just wondering :? ...good luck!
CT
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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 3 NOT perfect

Post by phliparoonie » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:13 pm

Spark check (plugs laying on the cylinders) show thin, yellow spark on both plugs. How does this happen with a new system? Spark checks on the old Type V system always showed fat, blue spark.

Reinstalled the plugs and fired up the engine. Needed enricheners for the first two minutes. Rolling on the the throttle produced thin, black exhaust (not belching and billowing like the modified diesel trucks some morons around here are know for driving). Dirty exhaust like that has never happened before, either. There was a little sooting on both plugs after 3 to 4 minutes of running time, right one looked a hair sootier.

12.48V in the battery. What other tests for coil function?

I will remove the coil and give the plug wires a CW turn. I think I read somewhere that there is a threaded pin inside the coil that the plug wires screw into for secure fitment.

Cleaned the left carb after it drained gas into the cylinder overnight, last week (see the other, other thread I have going here)
It is important to keep an open mind. But not so much that your brain falls out. Carl Sagan
I am old, but I'm happy. Cat Stevens
It's a tractor, not a Ferrari. Holopaw Gene

2004 Tourist "Charlie" 25,036 km - 18/04/24
stock: pipes, carbs, airbox, fuel petcock, tractor seat
new/add: windscreen,hack headlight,4 head stud holes,pistons,rings,starter,FD splined hub,clutch actuator bearing, clutch arm,donut,drive shaft,Ducati ignition,tank xover dscnect

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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 3

Post by phliparoonie » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:30 pm

phliparoonie wrote:... Moved the sensor CCW (following the rotation of the interrupter) and it caught but did not run well. ...
Thinking about this and it seems like such a movement would retard the spark: fixed object is moved away from spot where spinning object needs to be. :?: However, when I do that, the timing mark rises in the hole, indicating the timing is being advanced. Isn't it :?:

But, then again, I get lost in my own woods.
It is important to keep an open mind. But not so much that your brain falls out. Carl Sagan
I am old, but I'm happy. Cat Stevens
It's a tractor, not a Ferrari. Holopaw Gene

2004 Tourist "Charlie" 25,036 km - 18/04/24
stock: pipes, carbs, airbox, fuel petcock, tractor seat
new/add: windscreen,hack headlight,4 head stud holes,pistons,rings,starter,FD splined hub,clutch actuator bearing, clutch arm,donut,drive shaft,Ducati ignition,tank xover dscnect

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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 3

Post by phliparoonie » Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:24 pm

plug wires are securely seated in the sealed coil. Spark test showed weak, thin yellow spark, still.
:x :beerchug: :x :beerchug:
It is important to keep an open mind. But not so much that your brain falls out. Carl Sagan
I am old, but I'm happy. Cat Stevens
It's a tractor, not a Ferrari. Holopaw Gene

2004 Tourist "Charlie" 25,036 km - 18/04/24
stock: pipes, carbs, airbox, fuel petcock, tractor seat
new/add: windscreen,hack headlight,4 head stud holes,pistons,rings,starter,FD splined hub,clutch actuator bearing, clutch arm,donut,drive shaft,Ducati ignition,tank xover dscnect

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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 1

Post by URAL CT » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:05 pm

Go over your electrical connections on the Ducati, most of all the ground. Most folks forget the importance of good ground connections. I was taught this by an old mechanic friend back in the mid-70s. In fact on my rig, I have ground connections from the battery negative to the motor (stock), the frame, & to the sidecar body...3 wires from the battery. Overkill...maybe but I have not had any major electrical problem since I bought the Ural new in 2007. The 2 issues I've had was an unplugged power connection to the fuse & the other time was when I discovered a frayed trigger wire on the PA coil. Found it by inspecting the wiring connections. Hope you get your issue sorted out.
CT
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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 3

Post by VWK75S » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:36 am

phliparoonie wrote: Spark test showed weak, thin yellow spark
Normal for a Ducati
John
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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 3

Post by phliparoonie » Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:24 am

VWK75S wrote:
phliparoonie wrote: Spark test showed weak, thin yellow spark
Normal for a Ducati
John
"Normal"? Really? How can that be?. Please explain.
Thanks.
It is important to keep an open mind. But not so much that your brain falls out. Carl Sagan
I am old, but I'm happy. Cat Stevens
It's a tractor, not a Ferrari. Holopaw Gene

2004 Tourist "Charlie" 25,036 km - 18/04/24
stock: pipes, carbs, airbox, fuel petcock, tractor seat
new/add: windscreen,hack headlight,4 head stud holes,pistons,rings,starter,FD splined hub,clutch actuator bearing, clutch arm,donut,drive shaft,Ducati ignition,tank xover dscnect

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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 1

Post by phliparoonie » Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:30 am

Pulled the gas tank and checked the voltage at the power connector: 10.51 V. Battery checks at 12.48 V.
It was getting late so I will go over the harness looking for places 2 volts could leak out.
Ground is solid and secure on the top left engine bolt stud. Is there another place that could be more "groundier"

If all this leads to re-installing the old Type V (and it works), I am going to be pi$$ed for the first time owning this bike.
It is important to keep an open mind. But not so much that your brain falls out. Carl Sagan
I am old, but I'm happy. Cat Stevens
It's a tractor, not a Ferrari. Holopaw Gene

2004 Tourist "Charlie" 25,036 km - 18/04/24
stock: pipes, carbs, airbox, fuel petcock, tractor seat
new/add: windscreen,hack headlight,4 head stud holes,pistons,rings,starter,FD splined hub,clutch actuator bearing, clutch arm,donut,drive shaft,Ducati ignition,tank xover dscnect

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Re: Installing newest Ducati ignition - post 2013 PART 3

Post by VWK75S » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:52 am

phliparoonie wrote:"Normal"? Really? How can that be?. Please explain.
Thanks.
Seen at least four Ducati coils/CDI produce the same type of weak spark, :? but the Ural seems happy :) with it. My 09 GU always been this way.
Have a dead CDI that I haven’t completely taken apart yet (need to remove the potting compound) but I’d suspect they’ve installed a load resistor to protect the CDI from ungrounded spark plugs.
John
The Ural's made Maine a much bigger state.

2009 GearUp 150,000kms
2007 Retro 25,000kms
1991 VWK75S 110,000miles

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