Starter Question

Woe unto you that bought the first model year of a major remake, perhaps this section can help address any 2014 and later model Ural "imperfections". Here's a special section for folks with the latest rigs to discuss 2014 and later model-related topics such fuel injection, 3-wheel disc brakes, hydraulic steering dampers, spin-on oil filters and other anomalies that don't belong on true Russsian motorcycle ;-P We've gone from using big hammers and greasy wrenches to needing computers and Ouija boards in order to fix our rigs.
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Please keep this section specific to issues pertaining to 2014 and later models such as fuel injection, sidecar and rear disc brakes and so forth. Ask general or non-2014 and later specific questions in the main Hammerin' & Wrenchin' section.
HassoBoxhead
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Starter Question

Post by HassoBoxhead » Thu May 09, 2019 8:39 pm

Left my lights on and ran down the battery. After charging the battery everything worked fine except the starter won’t turn over. When I press the button, nothing at all, not a sound. Wondering if this is a starter issue, fuse issue, or something else?

Had to use the Kickstarter for the first time since I bought the bike. Never even a hint of any issue with the starter before this.

Any thoughts?
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Wildhorse Cafe
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Re: Starter Question

Post by Wildhorse Cafe » Thu May 09, 2019 9:17 pm

The battery is probley played out. 99.99% of the time it's the battery.
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HassoBoxhead
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Re: Starter Question

Post by HassoBoxhead » Sat May 11, 2019 1:01 pm

Well, replaced the battery, still nothing when I push the electric start switch. What’s next to check? Fuses? Starter itself?

Thing is, I’ve never had even a hint of an issue with the starter before.
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chaos2
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Re: Starter Question

Post by chaos2 » Sat May 11, 2019 2:23 pm

if it's not even clicking I'd put a voltmeter on the small wire going to the solenoid and see if it's getting energized when you push the starter button.
past afflictions include limey motocars and bikes, R60/2, R65ls, and a Citroen.
Now an 87 K75s, DB Haanjo gravel bike, and a rusty 2012 GU bought new
dual K&N cones on homemade intake, 40/137.5
Raceway needles, Modtop exhaust
$29 VW Hydraulic steering dampener

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Mr Wazzock
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Re: Starter Question

Post by Mr Wazzock » Sat May 11, 2019 5:59 pm

Unfortunately on the 2014 - '18 (not sure about '19) EFI's, 3 relays have to work before the starter will work. You might have a bad connection on one of them. Double unfortunately, the relays are under the front seat so a beyotch to get at. Especially so if you got a dualseat on.

From memory, the 3 relays are:
1. kill switch starter inhibit (prevents starting if in the 'stop' position).
2. alternator starter inhibit (prevents starting if charging, in other words, the engine is running).
3. the actual starter relay. Only works if 1 & 2 let it.

You could also have dodgy button contacts or a loom connector.
Mike H
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(aka Oranzhevaya Opasnost, "The Orange Peril")

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Wildhorse Cafe
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Re: Starter Question

Post by Wildhorse Cafe » Sun May 12, 2019 11:44 am

Down load a wiring diagram. And check that above. If your battery was over two years it was about time anyway.
2011 Patrol Higgs Bison Super Collider formally known as the Orange and Silver Pumpkin Coach
2006 Shinny Black, Tourist, Tatyanna

When you set out on your journey to Ithaca
pray the road is long , full of adventure, full of knowledge
not expecting that Ithaca will offer you riches
Ithaca has given you the beautiful voyage

C.P. Cavafy

rivers
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Re: Starter Question

Post by rivers » Sun May 12, 2019 12:14 pm

If the batt is good and you're not even getting a click, I'd test/work upstream from the starter through the relay circuit back up to the switch gear. Clean all connections as you go. Relays generally last quite awhile but they do go bad from corrosion.If you got a bad one, they're cheap at any auto parts store.
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Bendog02760
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Re: Starter Question

Post by Bendog02760 » Sun May 12, 2019 2:49 pm

HassoBoxhead wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 8:39 pm

Any thoughts?
I had my starter on my 12 GU go bad earlier in year. I was offered some good advice and ended up pulling the starter, diagnosing it was bad and putting a new one in. It was a real easy job. I attached that thread, hope it helps.



viewtopic.php?f=5&t=53832
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RC20
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Re: Starter Question

Post by RC20 » Sun May 12, 2019 7:04 pm

Maybe dumb question but does the kill switch just turn off the engine? (hey guys its been a bit since I had one)

And is it ON? And its the first item in the chain that could be broken.
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
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1 x CB700 SC (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

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HassoBoxhead
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Re: Starter Question

Post by HassoBoxhead » Mon May 13, 2019 10:28 am

Definitely checked the position of the kill switch and ensured it was in the operating position (ie down, not up). Maybe there's an issue with that connector. I HATE electrical issues, I'm out of my league there...
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chaos2
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Re: Starter Question

Post by chaos2 » Mon May 13, 2019 11:26 am

Like they say, if you can't fix it with a hammer it's electrical. Hey, have you tried tapping everything with a hammer? :D
past afflictions include limey motocars and bikes, R60/2, R65ls, and a Citroen.
Now an 87 K75s, DB Haanjo gravel bike, and a rusty 2012 GU bought new
dual K&N cones on homemade intake, 40/137.5
Raceway needles, Modtop exhaust
$29 VW Hydraulic steering dampener

RC20
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Re: Starter Question

Post by RC20 » Mon May 13, 2019 2:53 pm

I work on that stuff all the time but specific machine knowledge trumps thoughts every day of the week as each has its own setup you need to figure out if new at it.

One huge help is a volt meter, they make some low cost digital ones that are easy to read.

Wiring diagram of course and anyone who can add in what parts are where.

You should be able to access the fuses and see if they are blown (usually visual type)

With everything else getting juice then the highest suspect the ground wire is not there but check for one that might have gotten away (sometimes they have more than one)

Also can post in the Virtual Watering Hole forum to see if anyone in your area to help. Unfortunately you are about as far away as you can get from where I am.
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

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Mr Wazzock
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Re: Starter Question

Post by Mr Wazzock » Mon May 13, 2019 3:32 pm

RC20 wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:04 pm
Maybe dumb question but does the kill switch just turn off the engine? (hey guys its been a bit since I had one)

And is it ON? And its the first item in the chain that could be broken.
On models with the Electrojet EFI, the kill switch only tells the ECU's whether to run the engine or not. Perversely, the switch is open-circuit to 'run', closed to 'stop'. Back to front to how a 'normal' kill switch works. However the kill switch also control relay #1, which again is 'normally on' to send power to the alternator and relay #2, but the contacts are broken when the kill switch is in the 'stop' position. If #1 or #2 had dodgy contacts then current won't get thru to allow relay #3 to work. However, if the red charging light lights up that proves relay #1 is working properly.

I have sometimes had this same symptom. Pressing the start button again clears it. I am seriously thinking about bypassing relays 1 & 2 so that relay #3 'permanently' has power from the key switch, so only needs the start button to work. Also I want to put the starter relay (#3) in a location that's easier to get at if it needs testing or replacing. At the mo it's a seat off job to get at these relays. :(
Mike H
2016 Ural cT, in glorious terracotta
(aka Oranzhevaya Opasnost, "The Orange Peril")

rivers
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Re: Starter Question

Post by rivers » Mon May 13, 2019 3:45 pm

Keep troubleshooting the circuit. You've got an 'open' somewhere. It's not your starter. These starters are really notorious for gathering water, dirt, carbon brush dust and getting gummed up corroded but in that case it'll act slow, sluggish or just make grunting noises. It'll be obvious you're getting 12v to it. If you're not even getting a relay to click your 12v got misdirected or lost en route. As RC mentioned, as a Ural owner you really do need a DMM/VOM. (digital multi-metter/volt ohm meter). For basic 12vdc you don't need a high zoot expensive pro Fluke meter. One of the cheap Chinese($20) works fine for 12vdc.
Not saying your starter couldn't use a good cleaning but really don't think it's the issue the starter can't process the 12v but rather it's just not getting 12v to it.
Also never a bad idea to carry a spare relay on a Ural. They're cheap(8?) and you don't need an expensive Bosch etc brand relay. They prolly all come from the same factory in China anyway. ;)
Joe
014 GU
"I'm lost but I'm making good time."

RC20
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Re: Starter Question

Post by RC20 » Mon May 13, 2019 5:48 pm

Spot on.

One of the Mantas I have picked up over the years was "what changed".

Not that a part can't fail but often enough its something we touched and didn't realize it. Relays don't usually fry, contact get iffy etc.
Coils can fail, if it was iffy you could have burned one out (open)

With the meter you can see where the voltage ends, then figure out what is immediately upstream of that.

It would be a good idea to get the voltmeter and see what the non charge state of the battery is.

Its not unheard of for a battery that has drained to be in bad shape, it will run lights but pull a serious current (or try) and it won't do it.

So you check the voltage with all off, it should be 12.5 or so (12.8 maybe). If its not the battery is not charged and it may not take a full charge anymore.

If its over 12, turn on the light(s) blow the horn (any added load) it should stay above 12 for quite some time. A drop indicates battery is not going to delivery anymore.
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

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