Rear brake pedal freeplay

Woe unto you that bought the first model year of a major remake, perhaps this section can help address any 2014 and later model Ural "imperfections". Here's a special section for folks with the latest rigs to discuss 2014 and later model-related topics such fuel injection, 3-wheel disc brakes, hydraulic steering dampers, spin-on oil filters and other anomalies that don't belong on true Russsian motorcycle ;-P We've gone from using big hammers and greasy wrenches to needing computers and Ouija boards in order to fix our rigs.
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Please keep this section specific to issues pertaining to 2014 and later models such as fuel injection, sidecar and rear disc brakes and so forth. Ask general or non-2014 and later specific questions in the main Hammerin' & Wrenchin' section.
jcbigears
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Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by jcbigears » Sat May 04, 2019 9:01 am

Hi all. Newbie here to Ural but not to motorcycle mechanics. I need some advice please. I’ve just bought a 2016 Ranger that sat around a lot. It’s only got 130km on the clock and looks it too.
However, I have what feels like far too much play in the rear brake pedal. It works, but I’m almost pointing my toes downwards to have any effect. I’ve read other posts about this problem and am wondering if i should flush out both brake lines and bleed them, then balance them (which sounds like a big effort) or just adjust the freeplay via the cable adjuster at the back of the pedal. The brake fluid for all I know hasn’t been changed ever, so I suspect I know what the right answer is going to be...
Thanks for your opinions anyway.
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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by S 854 » Sat May 04, 2019 9:17 am

No experience with Ural rear discs...however... lots of experience with pre-owned vehicles...

Best thing you can do is change all the fluids... engine oil, tranny oil, brake fluid... this will give you a baseline for service going forward...
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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by jcbigears » Sat May 04, 2019 9:24 am

That was my feeling too.
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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by Eric N » Sat May 04, 2019 5:04 pm

If you follow the brake pedal back, on both the pusher and sidecar will be hydraulic master cylinders. Where the linkage enters the cylinder is a rod held in place with a little clip. Unclip it, and there should be 1mm or so play in that rod going in/ out. Odds are thaty's already adjusted just fine, but it's something to check. It has a locknut adjustment on it and it's how you can adjust activation of the sidecar brake for straight stopping.

To bleed the rear brake caliper, you need to remove it. The nipple is not pointing up, and if someone tries to bleed it without that nipple pointing up, it will introduce air into the system.

Having to pose like a ballerina to use the brakes happens when someone tries to bleed to rear brakes without removing the caliper. Introduces air into the system. The sidecar brakes are getting the brunt of the force and it will dart towards the sidecar in a hard stop.

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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by rivers » Sat May 04, 2019 6:13 pm

Eric N wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 5:04 pm

To bleed the rear brake caliper, you need to remove it. The nipple is not pointing up, and if someone tries to bleed it without that nipple pointing up, it will introduce air into the system.
Otherwise search online for the plans to make a DIY pressure bleeder and reverse bleed the system.
Joe
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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by jcbigears » Sat May 04, 2019 6:17 pm

Eric N wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 5:04 pm

Having to pose like a ballerina to use the brakes happens when someone tries to bleed to rear brakes without removing the caliper. Introduces air into the system. The sidecar brakes are getting the brunt of the force and it will dart towards the sidecar in a hard stop.
Thank you. So should I bleed the sidecar brakes as well? Did I mention that it’s a left sided sidecar and it makes everything to do with bleeding brakes a whole lot more difficult. The other thing is the bleed nipple is about 0.2mm from the caliper. Who designed this?

I know I have to but...

What about reverse bleeding?
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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by Eric N » Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm

Your symptoms suggest it's the pusher that has the issue. At least that's my experience when, even though I had been told to remove the caliper, I wanted to see what happened when I didn't. Really required a lot of toe pushing to get a hint of brake. Sidecar was fine.

I'd start with the pusher side, which yep if you're a left sidecar is going to add an extra layer of yuck. If the sidecar brake's not engaging at all, then play with it, but the pusher is a known "oops didn't bleed right" issue.

The caliper isn't a Ural design. It's some part they happened to stumble across that worked. Brake pads are from a one year CanAm Spyder, and it's possible the caliper is from that (where it likely works just fine, is installed differently, etc).

When the factory made everything, designs were different. Advantages of open market products, better quality but frankenbike quirks.

Haven't pressure bled. If someone's done it and didn't still have air issues, cool. I'd want some "yep I've done it on a 2014+ Ural and it worked great" comments before just going with the "hey, this is a way, dunno if it works" school.
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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by :FI:Igor » Sun May 05, 2019 9:59 am

When you say 'remove' I suspect you actually mean unbolt the brake rotor pins (like when we R/R drive wheel) and rotate the caliber assembly until the bleed nipple is up. I haven't bleed the brakes yet, still good at 50,000 km. I use a pack of wood shims and hammer to move the piston back when I R/R brake pads.
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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by cookiemech » Sun May 05, 2019 3:50 pm

Oddly enough, I just did this job this morning. I am putting my 2014 GU back together after a nut-and-bolt dismantling to correct its awful rust and lack of decent paint . . .

I had recently flushed and bled the rear brake my usual way, which is vacuum bleeding using a Vacula (compressed air pulling a vacuum across a venturi, so the waste fluid is pulled into a container). I use this on all my motorcycles and cars with great success. Not here, however. The rear brake pedal had a very long (inches) travel, though it did function. So I took the entire rear caliper apart, since the piston was not retracting easily. This caliper uses two quad rings (like o-rings, but square in section). The inner is the usual piston ring that keeps the brake fluid inside the caliper, and the outer is just a dust excluder. Well, there was corrosion in the groove for the outer (dust) ring, which caused considerable drag on the piston.

After cleaning everything to my satisfaction, I put everything back together, with the parking brake screw (which mechanically pushes the piston out when the parking brake lever pulls its cable) fully retracted and the piston fully seated in its bore. Reconnected the brake line and turned the caliper so that the bleed nipple was at the highest point and directed upward. Again, I flushed and bled the system with my Vacula.

Reinstalled the caliper with pads and pumped the pedal to move the pads against the rotor. At this point the pedal was MUCH harder and had considerably less travel to engagement. I made a minor adjustment to the master cylinder pushrod (manual says no less than 1 mm of free play at the rod). Now the pedal travel is somewhere near the max of the spec (25 to 40 mm). Big improvement!
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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by jcbigears » Sun May 05, 2019 5:21 pm

Thank you all.
I’ll bleed both rear brakes this weekend and let you know how it goes.
On a slightly different matter, the sidecar brake squeals but I’m thinking this is from the very low kms don’t since new.
John
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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by jcbigears » Sun May 05, 2019 5:34 pm

:FI:Igor wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:59 am
When you say 'remove' I suspect you actually mean unbolt the brake rotor pins (like when we R/R drive wheel) and rotate the caliber assembly until the bleed nipple is up.
Thank you.
In the attached photo the pins you’re referring to, are they the bolts marked with red and blue circles? Also who in the motherland thought that putting the nipple (green arrow, hard to see) hard up against the bolt was a good idea! Does it look to anyone here that the nipple is at the same level as the banjo fitting in this? Do other people's brakes look like this? I ask only because, being a left-sided cart, maybe the setup is different, and for most discussions I've read, the nipple is far below.
Thanks,
John
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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by cookiemech » Mon May 06, 2019 5:21 am

I don't know if you'll have enough slack in the brake line and the parking brake cable to do that (removing the bolts circled in blue and red). You could try . . . BTW, yes, my 2014 GU sold in the US market (so RH sidecar) has a brake that looks exactly like that one.

In my case, to be sure that I could point that bleed nipple straight up (and at the highest point in the caliper), I removed the brake pad pins (these are the two socket head screws shown at the top of the caliper in this photo) and also the parking brake cable. Of course, the pads drop out, but this allows a great deal of freedom in motion for positioning the caliper. Don't neglect to remove the clips on the ends of the brake pad pins before unscrewing them.

I think someone else answered the question of the bleed nipple placement . . . Ural didn't design the caliper; it was intended for some other application, but just happens to fit and work on this machine . . .
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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by GHGoodwin » Mon May 06, 2019 5:53 am

Remove the parking brake adjuster link at the caliper. Turn the caliper piston nut clockwise until it stops. Put a small piece of fuel line on the brake adjuster link stop post and reinstall the link against the fuel line. Remove the fuel line and reinstall the brake cable.

Next adjust the master cylinder adjuster one turn out from light finger contact.

Go for a ride. If the brakes are working but you're still toe dancing you'll need to mod your pedal. Look back through my old posts in 2014. There's a lot of info on how I analyzed and rebuilt my brake system. Might be of some help.

If you're near me in NE Ohio I'd be glad to help.
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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by jcbigears » Mon May 06, 2019 8:10 am

Thank you! I never expected to “meet” such a great bunch of people.
Having said that, as I live in Australia I’m not nearby but if you’re ever in Melbourne please let me know.
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Re: Rear brake pedal freeplay

Post by Mr Wazzock » Mon May 06, 2019 4:55 pm

jcbigears wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 9:01 am
Hi all. Newbie here to Ural but not to motorcycle mechanics. I need some advice please. I’ve just bought a 2016 Ranger that sat around a lot. It’s only got 130km on the clock and looks it too.
However, I have what feels like far too much play in the rear brake pedal. It works, but I’m almost pointing my toes downwards to have any effect.
Sorry that's normal. The anount of total movement, top to fully depressed, is daft.
I’ve read other posts about this problem and am wondering if i should flush out both brake lines and bleed them, then balance them (which sounds like a big effort) or just adjust the freeplay via the cable adjuster at the back of the pedal. The brake fluid for all I know hasn’t been changed ever, so I suspect I know what the right answer is going to be...
Thanks for your opinions anyway.
Only 3 years old so fluid should still be OK. Unless it's got contaminated.

"just adjust the freeplay via the cable adjuster at the back of the pedal"
Do not mess with this, it will not alter the pedal height or travel, its only purpose is to set a vital amount of free play in the actuator rod to ensure that the master cylinder piston is fully released when the pedal is released, if not, there is a real danger of the disc binding and the pads smoking, THIS HAS HAPPENED TO PEOPLE. And the discs are not too cheap if you screw one up!
Mike H
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