2014 Patrol low idle

Woe unto you that bought the first model year of a major remake, perhaps this section can help address any 2014 and later model Ural "imperfections". Here's a special section for folks with the latest rigs to discuss 2014 and later model-related topics such fuel injection, 3-wheel disc brakes, hydraulic steering dampers, spin-on oil filters and other anomalies that don't belong on true Russsian motorcycle ;-P We've gone from using big hammers and greasy wrenches to needing computers and Ouija boards in order to fix our rigs.
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Please keep this section specific to issues pertaining to 2014 and later models such as fuel injection, sidecar and rear disc brakes and so forth. Ask general or non-2014 and later specific questions in the main Hammerin' & Wrenchin' section.
atlasheating
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2014 Patrol low idle

Post by atlasheating » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:06 pm

This problem has been creeping up on me. A few months ago I was warming up the bike while putting on my gloves etc and the bike died.
I start it up and everything is OK.
A few weeks ago I am at a long left turn light and the engine dies. It starts right up and I am on my way.
This week while warming the bike up in the snow, the same thing , it would not idle very long at all.
It seems that I have less time at idle before dieing completely.
If I keep my hand on the throttle and give it gas every once and a while I am OK (kind of like the Harley guys)

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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by hotflash44 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:20 pm

atlasheating wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:06 pm
This problem has been creeping up on me. A few months ago I was warming up the bike while putting on my gloves etc and the bike died.
I start it up and everything is OK.
A few weeks ago I am at a long left turn light and the engine dies. It starts right up and I am on my way.
This week while warming the bike up in the snow, the same thing , it would not idle very long at all.
It seems that I have less time at idle before dieing completely.
If I keep my hand on the throttle and give it gas every once and a while I am OK (kind of like the Harley guys)
my 2016 when cold engine CHT under 175deg will come close to what you describe, but once completely warm its good. that said i do keep my idle when full warm at 850rpm. i have a OBDwiz so i can monitor the idle. i know most like about 1050RPM but i like the 850 better. so if you think the engine temperature is at normal full temperature and you have this issue not sure what the problem is. :cheers:
2016 gear up asphalt grey, name Seryy Medved ,Air America CIA circa 1967/8 Vung Tau Viet Nam USS Tutuila ARG-4 (AND JUST A TOUCH OF AGENT ORANGE!)

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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by Albuquralque » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:08 pm

Idle needs to be set at 1050 rpm on a fully warmed up engine. Need to balance tb’s at the same time.
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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by Eric N » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:44 am

Have you changed fuel recently? What's your oil level? Air filter clean?

Had a weird idle issue from crap fuel. Took several tanks before it sorted out. My bike currently prefers mid-grade, higher or lower doesn't run as well.

Oil level too high can make the bike idle weird too, my theory is it splashes around too much and oozes out the breather back down into the throttle bodies.

Idle is easy to adjust, there are knobs under both throttle bodies. Turn in/ increase throttle, turn out/ decrease. You can see the knob just adjusts the throttle stop, nothing fancy. If you turn both in 1/8 of a turn, see what happens. Try to turn both an equal amount Ideally you'll want to balance the throttle bodies, but the computers talk to eachother and compensate a little if you're off. Unbalanced and bike will feel like an unbalanced w@$#ing machine at idle. Balancing throttle cables is a different step. If you post your location, there might be someone near you with a cable/ software that can plug in and help with the balancing.

My idle hovers in the 950 range, I set it to around 1050 on a warmer day but too high and the EFI is a pain to start in sub freezing.
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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by hotflash44 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:37 am

hope you have access to the computer OBDwiz to dial in your balance and idle, its the only for sure way to get it right. seems there are 2 adjustments like noted above the knurled screw on the bottom is for idle/balance up to 1800 rpm. after that the balance needs to be adjusted with the higher up throttle adjustment where the cable connects to the throttle body,for 1800 rpm and above. :cheers:
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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by Eric N » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:19 am

hotflash44 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:37 am
hope you have access to the computer OBDwiz to dial in your balance and idle, its the only for sure way to get it right.
I take it you've never actually adjusted your throttle bodies.

The idle adjustment, for when there is no twist of the throttle, is the adjustment screw on the bottom of the throttle body. The cable adjustment, for when you're twisting the throttle, is done at higher revs because you want to make sure both cables are pulling equally.

With a carbed bike, a small fraction of a turn will show up as a difference in vacuum on the twinmax.

With the software, it's not precise enough even with the computer to get the same level of detail. Dealer tool might be better, the OBD is still a type of ballpark range. I've adjusted by hand several times and been within 1/8 a turn of what the software shows. The throttle bodies talk to eachother and do a degree of compensation. You can make small adjustments while plugged in, they'd show on a carbed bike but don't show on the software because it's just not that precise and tries to self-balance.

If someone is paying attention when they turn the adjustment knobs, to try and turn both equally, they can be "close enough". I've done it several times on my 2018. They're only impacting idle, the engine isn't under huge stress at idle. If the bike goes w@$#ing machine, like a very out of balance bike, adjust till it's no longer doing that.

Worst case, take it in for dealer to adjust, but it's not Swiss precision.
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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by hotflash44 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:43 am

Eric N wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:19 am
hotflash44 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:37 am
hope you have access to the computer OBDwiz to dial in your balance and idle, its the only for sure way to get it right.
I take it you've never actually adjusted your throttle bodies.

The idle adjustment, for when there is no twist of the throttle, is the adjustment screw on the bottom of the throttle body. The cable adjustment, for when you're twisting the throttle, is done at higher revs because you want to make sure both cables are pulling equally.

With a carbed bike, a small fraction of a turn will show up as a difference in vacuum on the twinmax.

With the software, it's not precise enough even with the computer to get the same level of detail. Dealer tool might be better, the OBD is still a type of ballpark range. I've adjusted by hand several times and been within 1/8 a turn of what the software shows. The throttle bodies talk to eachother and do a degree of compensation. You can make small adjustments while plugged in, they'd show on a carbed bike but don't show on the software because it's just not that precise and tries to self-balance.

If someone is paying attention when they turn the adjustment knobs, to try and turn both equally, they can be "close enough". I've done it several times on my 2018. They're only impacting idle, the engine isn't under huge stress at idle. If the bike goes w@$#ing machine, like a very out of balance bike, adjust till it's no longer doing that.

Worst case, take it in for dealer to adjust, but it's not Swiss precision.
your absolutely correct, but as a 2 year owner i have tried to get a understanding of how its done. i have the OBDwiz and have checked my 2016 several times but no adjustment needed. i have watched Darrells video many times and also other OBDwiz videos. i may be off somewhat, but not to much as im basically quoting the experts. Boy the lucky 2019 buyers are able to do this function with a carb balance instrument like a twinMax you mentioned. :cheers:
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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by Albuquralque » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:32 pm

I would highly discourage anyone to try and adjust idle with just the thumbscrews with no way of checking throttle body balance and rpm! You are asking for trouble.

The OBDWiz software when used with a laptop and cabled into the bikes OBD connector is as accurate as anything out there......dealer tool, harmonizer, ....etc.

I have the OBDWiz software and I have a harmonizer. I have balanced my throttle bodies with one and checked it with the other. I have even balanced my throttle bodies with either of these and checked it with the dealer tool. All three gave the same readings and were very accurate.
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Previous Urals Owned: 2004 Wolf, 2006 Tourist, 2006 Patrol (TOW), 2006 Patrol (TOM)

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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by hotflash44 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:44 pm

thanks Darrell for your input as i know for sure ,you have been there and done that. not sure how far off i was on my advice, but reading and watching how something is done is worth passing on, sort of like going to school and reading and listening to a teacher. agree that hands on experience is probably best though. :cheers:
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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by Eric N » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:06 am

Darrell,

The adjustment is just idle, as long as he's close and not messing with the cables, what trouble do you expect? I'm not a fan of vague gloom and doom. Ever run an unbalanced engine? It's pretty obvious when it's so off as to cause problems.

The screws are probably already off. The engine is under minimal load. Once the throttle twists, the adjustment comes off the stops anyway.

If idle is too far off, the engine will whomp and he can fix it. If it's ballpark, what real problem do you expect?

Sure in a perfect world he'd have all the proper tools. If the option is either holding the throttle or ballparking the throttle stops, the stops cause fewer problems.

Experiment. Take your bike. Check balance. Then without the OBD plugged in, reset idle to 950, then back to 1050. Just feel and try to turn the screws an even amount. Plug in your OBD and see how closely balanced you are. If you are careful, you might be spot on or very close.

If needed, the OP can mark his screws for location and visually reset if needed.
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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by BlueRockCrawler » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:25 am

Balance AFTER warming up. Hotflash, there's no provision in the electrojet TB's to "adjust" it's self as far as the butterflies or idle air go. I've seen what your saying that they will "follow" each other to an extent and the numbers will jump around, but this is just natural vacuum and Uralness, not any active action on the TB's. The new Keihin's actually have a separate air path with an ECU controlled motor metering the air. If you're OBDwiz doesn't seem to be precise enough, you need to set your MAP scale for metric and look at it in kPa not PSI. Maybe change your scale around, I've not had any problem being able to see an 1/8th turn of thumb screw turning in the software. For the cables, you can put your finger on one where they attach to the TB's, and your eyeballs on the other one, adjust until your finger and eye see movement at exactly the same time, and get them pretty close. Usually, I do this just as a ballpark and I've somehow been spot on with the OBDwiz.
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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by Subsnowden » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:59 am

I will get yelled at for saying this but I have tuned by ear and I was only 1 kpa off balance at about 1000 rpm(checked with OBDWiz). I’m not saying it’s the best way but if you know how to listen it’s not impossible.

Another consideration is battery and charging system condition. No alternator generates sufficient voltage at idle. If your battery isn’t accepting a low voltage charge then it’s possible you are running out of juice while idling since the alternator is not really “charging” the voltage
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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by hotflash44 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:33 am

BlueRockCrawler wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:25 am
Balance AFTER warming up. Hotflash, there's no provision in the electrojet TB's to "adjust" it's self as far as the butterflies or idle air go. I've seen what your saying that they will "follow" each other to an extent and the numbers will jump around, but this is just natural vacuum and Uralness, not any active action on the TB's. The new Keihin's actually have a separate air path with an ECU controlled motor metering the air. If you're OBDwiz doesn't seem to be precise enough, you need to set your MAP scale for metric and look at it in kPa not PSI. Maybe change your scale around, I've not had any problem being able to see an 1/8th turn of thumb screw turning in the software. For the cables, you can put your finger on one where they attach to the TB's, and your eyeballs on the other one, adjust until your finger and eye see movement at exactly the same time, and get them pretty close. Usually, I do this just as a ballpark and I've somehow been spot on with the OBDwiz.
i dont have a issue with my Ural never have ,and i have always had my OBDWiz set on kpa.as per Darrells/mass engineering videos.PSI doesn't register on the power bars very good. i can see how the by ear method works i use it all the time on old cars for carb and timing. :cheers:
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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by atlasheating » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:12 am

Thanks for all of the helpful suggestions. I live in Kent, WA. not far from Windmill (where ever he lives) I have seen him on the roads near to me.

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Re: 2014 Patrol low idle

Post by Mr Wazzock » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:52 pm

Subsnowden wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:59 am
Another consideration is battery and charging system condition. No alternator generates sufficient voltage at idle. If your battery isn’t accepting a low voltage charge then it’s possible you are running out of juice while idling since the alternator is not really “charging” the voltage
FYI, you can have a battery charger on for the duration. This is what my dealer does when doing the OBD. Else his software can poop out with "battery too low" after a while. This is especially a problem where all the lights are "hard wired" to be permanently on.

I've also put a charger on at home when I wanted to let it idle for 15 - 20 minutes to get it fully warmed up. Think it was only about an Amp or something, while ilding. Not as much as I thought it would be. Headlight was switched off tho so only park lights on (20 Watts). But anyway meant current was going into the battery rather than out, for the duration.
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