Hard starting '14.

Woe unto you that bought the first model year of a major remake, perhaps this section can help address any 2014 and later model Ural "imperfections". Here's a special section for folks with the latest rigs to discuss 2014 and later model-related topics such fuel injection, 3-wheel disc brakes, hydraulic steering dampers, spin-on oil filters and other anomalies that don't belong on true Russsian motorcycle ;-P We've gone from using big hammers and greasy wrenches to needing computers and Ouija boards in order to fix our rigs.
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Please keep this section specific to issues pertaining to 2014 and later models such as fuel injection, sidecar and rear disc brakes and so forth. Ask general or non-2014 and later specific questions in the main Hammerin' & Wrenchin' section.
stagewex
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by stagewex » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:14 pm

So Urals ('14 to "18) are the only efi machines that can use or need starter fluid in extreme cold weather?
Yet another first for this manufacturer.

You know what... I guess whatever works.
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Current Herd all running amok:
2008 Vespa 150S (Elec & Kick Start)
2007 Ural Patrol (2WD, Elec & Kick Start)
2006 Yamaha TW200 (Elec & Kick Start)
1995 BMW K75 (Elec Start)
1991 Honda XR250L (Kick Start Only)
1986 Yamaha BW200ES (Elec & Kick Start)
1969 BMW r60/2 US model (Kick Start only)

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by windmill » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:57 pm

stagewex wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:14 pm
So Urals ('14 to "18) are the only efi machines that can use or need starter fluid in extreme cold weather?
Yet another first for this manufacturer.

You know what... I guess whatever works.
Still common for industrial, transportation, and military applications.
http://quickstart-ether.com/
Block heaters are still common for cars too.

Urals previous extreme cold weather advantage was the anomaly.
Barry

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by eastbloc » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:13 am

This morning it was 3 degrees and below freezing since Tuesday. I tried starting normally, and despite the fresh car battery I didn't try more than 4-5 cranks, as by then I felt the starter beginning to lose momentum without any indication of the engine firing.

Next, I used Chad's technique and squirted some starting fluid into the airbox, through the breather tube hole, which is indeed very easy to access and replace. Almost like it was designed for this.

The engine roared to life instantly as soon as I hit the starter and settled into a nice fast idle. It did not stall even once during warmup, and when I rode away it felt like it does when I've been riding it all day.

I would say we've cracked the root cause here. The bike is too lean to start in the cold. Now it's just a matter of personal preference on how to solve for this problem.

The "Chad tek" is brilliantly simple and effective and should honestly be good enough for anyone, and definitely diminishes the priority of my enricher button project, which can now wait until spring, although I still think it is an interesting and desirable option, particularly if it enables reliable all-season kickstarting.
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by hotflash44 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:35 am

windmill wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:54 pm
hotflash44 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:49 pm
windmill wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:20 pm
Tomcatfixer wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:39 pm
After being out of town for the past three days, I sprayed starting fluid in the crankcase breather input to the airbox and, lawd a-mercy, this bike has never started so quickly!
-
20190130_142328.jpg
-
This is my new cold weather starting method.
Tomorrow morning, it's supposed to drop down to 20°F, so we'll see how it does at twenty degrees colder.
The way the breather hoses lead to the the branch pipes, it's like it was meant to be used that way.
sounds like TCF isolated the cure for the issue. now the fun can begin to make a portal into the breather/air cleaner that is easy to access and looks good. :cheers:
One could put a T fitting in the breather hose and be done with it, but for some folks a solution that doesn't require carrying a can of starting fluid would be more desirable.
are you old enough to remember the starting fluid in capsule form that was dropped into the intake tube of a diesel tractor. lift the small cap insert the capsule and close presto start and go . Ah, the good old days! :cheers: here is a link for just the container dont think product is available, www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage- ... -220333808
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by stagewex » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:02 am

"Urals previous extreme cold weather advantage was the anomaly."

You mean carburetors? Haha.

Like east bloc, it was 3 degrees up by my house this morning. I went to start my Jeep well before I had to leave for work at 6:30am. Just to let it warm up. At these temps the efi kept the revs/idle very high for quite awhile. As I walked back outside to leave I heard the engine finally calming down to normal idle. Normally a 1 or 2 minute procedure. Today almost 10 minutes.
Realizing that IMZ has pretty much abandoned the electrojet system, isn't there a way to re-map the bikes to take into account extreme cold weather starting? A way to make it less lean? There are a few different map versions so just wondering if one might be better than the other. Or a 3rd-4th made available. Something like a Power Commander or other 3rd party dongle was never available. Just too small of a niche for it to be worthwhile. But maybe IMZ could still provide some advanced support for this now older system?

I'm also wondering how these bikes were running in parts of Russia which for the most part would be much colder than here? Did they de-tune the EFI to be less stringent? Are they even using efi?

On the carb bikes it was pretty much the selling dealers that would shim the needles and change jets if they didn't want to hear complaints from customers who had starting or popping/farting issues with their rigs. Some did it as part of their set-up. Others didn't (like mine) until you complained about it. Then did it. As wth the newer bikes... just too lean. But that was something mechanical the dealers could do themselves. Software mapping comes from IMZ.
Stagewex

Current Herd all running amok:
2008 Vespa 150S (Elec & Kick Start)
2007 Ural Patrol (2WD, Elec & Kick Start)
2006 Yamaha TW200 (Elec & Kick Start)
1995 BMW K75 (Elec Start)
1991 Honda XR250L (Kick Start Only)
1986 Yamaha BW200ES (Elec & Kick Start)
1969 BMW r60/2 US model (Kick Start only)

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by eastbloc » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:11 am

They’re not using modern Urals in Russia, for starters. They’re all for export now. Most Russians think we’re nuts for messing with these things, the way we think Germans are nuts for listening to music by David Hasselhoff.

The map is not the problem, my bike runs perfectly fine when it is warm. The Electrojet just seems to be missing any compensating function for conditions required for starting, and you wouldn’t want to mess with the idle mixture overall just to solve for that.

If you want a richer mixture, you can use the Dobeck EJK, that’s exactly what it does. But in my experience it does squat for the starting difficulty problem.

Finally, I am 100% certain no one at IMZ will ever look at electrojet again for any reason. There won’t be a new map or any more updates. It is what it is. Reason being it wouldn’t help them sell a single Ural, so what would be the point of investing precious limited resources in such activities?
Last edited by eastbloc on Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by stagewex » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:13 am

So what we have here ('14 to '18) was export only? I never, ever knew that. Interesting.
Stagewex

Current Herd all running amok:
2008 Vespa 150S (Elec & Kick Start)
2007 Ural Patrol (2WD, Elec & Kick Start)
2006 Yamaha TW200 (Elec & Kick Start)
1995 BMW K75 (Elec Start)
1991 Honda XR250L (Kick Start Only)
1986 Yamaha BW200ES (Elec & Kick Start)
1969 BMW r60/2 US model (Kick Start only)

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by eastbloc » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:32 am

stagewex wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:13 am
So what we have here ('14 to '18) was export only? I never, ever knew that. Interesting.
You might be able to buy one from the factory (it's Russia, you can buy anything if you have the money) but I doubt there's a single Ural dealership in the entire country.

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/29/worl ... decar.html

"With the end of the command economy, subsidized steel and cheap labor, the factory was forced to raise its prices, and sales in Russia fell sharply. Older sidecars can still be seen in Russia carrying hay, heads of lettuce and planks of wood. But Irbit sold only 20 motorcycles in Russia last year, and the owners say that the factory would have died without sales to the United States."

That was 2011, and I doubt the situation has changed much, especially as the manufacturing and retail cost of a new Ural has skyrocketed.
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by heindlengineeringural » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:53 am

do you always squeeze and hold the clutch when using the electric start?
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by windmill » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:08 am

eastbloc wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:11 am
The map is not the problem, my bike runs perfectly fine when it is warm. The Electrojet just seems to be missing any compensating function for conditions required for starting, and you wouldn’t want to mess with the idle mixture overall just to solve for that.

The electrojet system doesn't have the AIT and MAF sensors necessary to modulate the AF ratio for extremes in temperature. The O2, and CHT sensors only function to adjust the AF ratio once the engine is up to temperature.

Cheap and simple, expensive and complicated, pick your poison.
Last edited by windmill on Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by eastbloc » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:10 am

heindlengineeringural wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:53 am
do you always squeeze and hold the clutch when using the electric start?
Sometimes, if I'm too lazy to find neutral. It doesn't seem to make any difference.
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by eastbloc » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:11 am

windmill wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:08 am
eastbloc wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:11 am
The map is not the problem, my bike runs perfectly fine when it is warm. The Electrojet just seems to be missing any compensating function for conditions required for starting, and you wouldn’t want to mess with the idle mixture overall just to solve for that.

The electrojet system doesn't have the AIT and MAF sensors necessary to modulate the AF ratio for extremes in temperature. The O2, and CHT only function to adjust the AF ratio once the engine is up to temperature.

Cheap and simple, expensive and complicated, pick your poison.
As evidenced by the effectiveness starting fluid trick, it wouldn't need to modulate the AF ratio. All it would need to do is check the CHT and prime the cylinders on boot.
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by windmill » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:16 am

eastbloc wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:11 am
windmill wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:08 am
eastbloc wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:11 am
The map is not the problem, my bike runs perfectly fine when it is warm. The Electrojet just seems to be missing any compensating function for conditions required for starting, and you wouldn’t want to mess with the idle mixture overall just to solve for that.

The electrojet system doesn't have the AIT and MAF sensors necessary to modulate the AF ratio for extremes in temperature. The O2, and CHT only function to adjust the AF ratio once the engine is up to temperature.

Cheap and simple, expensive and complicated, pick your poison.
As evidenced by the effectiveness starting fluid trick, it wouldn't need to modulate the AF ratio. All it would need to do is check the CHT and prime the cylinders on boot.
The CHT isn't a thermostat, it doesn't send a signal until its up to temperature because its the heat that generates the signal. As far as its concerned cold is cold, it cant tell the difference between 10 deg, and 50 deg.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by stagewex » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:39 am

Windmill, what about the '19's with the new efi system (Keihin). Do you believe this is addressed going forward?
That's a pretty major global company vs. Electrojet.
Stagewex

Current Herd all running amok:
2008 Vespa 150S (Elec & Kick Start)
2007 Ural Patrol (2WD, Elec & Kick Start)
2006 Yamaha TW200 (Elec & Kick Start)
1995 BMW K75 (Elec Start)
1991 Honda XR250L (Kick Start Only)
1986 Yamaha BW200ES (Elec & Kick Start)
1969 BMW r60/2 US model (Kick Start only)

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by windmill » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:52 am

stagewex wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:02 am
"Urals previous extreme cold weather advantage was the anomaly."

You mean carburetors? Haha.
Anomaly as in I've never onwed a bike that starts as quick and easy in the extreme cold as a carbed Ural.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

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