Hard starting '14.

Woe unto you that bought the first model year of a major remake, perhaps this section can help address any 2014 and later model Ural "imperfections". Here's a special section for folks with the latest rigs to discuss 2014 and later model-related topics such fuel injection, 3-wheel disc brakes, hydraulic steering dampers, spin-on oil filters and other anomalies that don't belong on true Russsian motorcycle ;-P We've gone from using big hammers and greasy wrenches to needing computers and Ouija boards in order to fix our rigs.
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Please keep this section specific to issues pertaining to 2014 and later models such as fuel injection, sidecar and rear disc brakes and so forth. Ask general or non-2014 and later specific questions in the main Hammerin' & Wrenchin' section.
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propwash
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by propwash » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:59 am

eastbloc wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:13 am
Albuquralque wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:11 pm
12V

You’ll have to determine if the injector has a constant 12V input and operates with a switched ground. Or if the injector has a constant ground and operates with switched 12V
It’s the former. I’ve already consulted the wiring diagram and confirmed with a multimeter.

Hence my conclusion that we just need to wire up an alternate path to ground with a diode and momentary switch for the crudest solution here.
I am quite familiar with electronic system controls. ^^ That makes it much easier - no need to worry about the control pulse as much nor the complexity. I would prefer to bench test first, but a decent momentary to ground (with a decent gauged wire) should do it. You can experiment with the pulse width and get an approx value if this works to help start the engine. Then you can build a clean circuit to do just that (no switch bounce, set pulse width, etc) or not - I doubt the injectors are fragile.

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windmill
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by windmill » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:00 am

Mr Wazzock wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:14 am
windmill wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:14 am
propwash wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:52 pm
Power on/power off would be digital.
Current required to "energize" the injectors?
Power on/power off is a digital function of the ECU.

The solenoid in the injector opens the needle valve when it receives 12V from any source, it makes no difference if the power on/power off function is digital or analog.
Yes it's just a simple transistor switch.

It occurs to me a manual override will need a 'one shot' type monostable circuit to just put a brief squirt in, if the injectors were direct off a manual switch you may not be able to turn them on then off fast enough, then there's a real danger you could flood the engine so it won't start, or even worse put so much in you get a hydro lock in the cylinders. :o
I don't think there's much danger of flooding or hydro locking the engine with an injector. They spray a mist like an airbrush, from what I've observed with a injector removed and spraying into a rag, it would take 10 seconds or more of continuous spraying to put just a teaspoon worth of fuel in.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

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windmill
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by windmill » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:08 am

propwash wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:59 am
I doubt the injectors are fragile.
At cruising speed, they actuate around 1700 times a minute. I doubt the injectors are fragile too.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

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Mr Wazzock
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by Mr Wazzock » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:08 am

Ah well, human fallibility being what it is, I bet someone somewhere can and will c0ck it up. :D
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(aka Oranzhevaya Opasnost, "The Orange Peril")

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windmill
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by windmill » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:13 am

Mr Wazzock wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:08 am
Ah well, human fallibility being what it is, I bet someone somewhere can and will c0ck it up. :D
Well, that's another issue all together.............. :lol:
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by Tomcatfixer » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:39 pm

After being out of town for the past three days, I sprayed starting fluid in the crankcase breather input to the airbox and, lawd a-mercy, this bike has never started so quickly!
-
20190130_142328.jpg
-
This is my new cold weather starting method.
Tomorrow morning, it's supposed to drop down to 20°F, so we'll see how it does at twenty degrees colder.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
- Chad

Virginia Beach + Gordonsville, Virginia, USA

Current rides:
2015 Ural cT "Mobile Chernobyl", 2001 Ural Patrol "The Patrol", 1999 Ural Tourist "The RPOC", 1994 Honda VFR750F

Previous rides:
2007 Honda VTR1000 FireStorm (Super Hawk in U.S.)
2001 Buell Blast! - - - - - - - 2005 Yamaha FJR1300
1993 Honda CBR600F2 - -1984 Yamaha FJ1100
Two different 1986 Yamaha FZX700S Fazers

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windmill
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by windmill » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:20 pm

Tomcatfixer wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:39 pm
After being out of town for the past three days, I sprayed starting fluid in the crankcase breather input to the airbox and, lawd a-mercy, this bike has never started so quickly!
-
20190130_142328.jpg
-
This is my new cold weather starting method.
Tomorrow morning, it's supposed to drop down to 20°F, so we'll see how it does at twenty degrees colder.
The way the breather hoses lead to the the branch pipes, it's like it was meant to be used that way.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by hotflash44 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:49 pm

windmill wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:20 pm
Tomcatfixer wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:39 pm
After being out of town for the past three days, I sprayed starting fluid in the crankcase breather input to the airbox and, lawd a-mercy, this bike has never started so quickly!
-
20190130_142328.jpg
-
This is my new cold weather starting method.
Tomorrow morning, it's supposed to drop down to 20°F, so we'll see how it does at twenty degrees colder.
The way the breather hoses lead to the the branch pipes, it's like it was meant to be used that way.
sounds like TCF isolated the cure for the issue. now the fun can begin to make a portal into the breather/air cleaner that is easy to access and looks good. :cheers: just a idea how about a tubeless tire stem without the Schrader valve just the cap. drill a hole in the air cleaner and pop in the valve stem with a cap.
Last edited by hotflash44 on Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by Tomcatfixer » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:53 pm

The way the breather hoses lead to the the branch pipes, it's like it was meant to be used that way.
Yes, well, um, I guess it would... had... I... not... removed those... tubes...
-
2019-01-30 18.52.13.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
- Chad

Virginia Beach + Gordonsville, Virginia, USA

Current rides:
2015 Ural cT "Mobile Chernobyl", 2001 Ural Patrol "The Patrol", 1999 Ural Tourist "The RPOC", 1994 Honda VFR750F

Previous rides:
2007 Honda VTR1000 FireStorm (Super Hawk in U.S.)
2001 Buell Blast! - - - - - - - 2005 Yamaha FJR1300
1993 Honda CBR600F2 - -1984 Yamaha FJ1100
Two different 1986 Yamaha FZX700S Fazers

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windmill
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by windmill » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:54 pm

hotflash44 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:49 pm
windmill wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:20 pm
Tomcatfixer wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:39 pm
After being out of town for the past three days, I sprayed starting fluid in the crankcase breather input to the airbox and, lawd a-mercy, this bike has never started so quickly!
-
20190130_142328.jpg
-
This is my new cold weather starting method.
Tomorrow morning, it's supposed to drop down to 20°F, so we'll see how it does at twenty degrees colder.
The way the breather hoses lead to the the branch pipes, it's like it was meant to be used that way.
sounds like TCF isolated the cure for the issue. now the fun can begin to make a portal into the breather/air cleaner that is easy to access and looks good. :cheers:
One could put a T fitting in the breather hose and be done with it, but for some folks a solution that doesn't require carrying a can of starting fluid would be more desirable.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

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Tomcatfixer
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by Tomcatfixer » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:55 pm

now the fun can begin to make a portal into the breather/air cleaner that is easy to access and looks good.
You guys can tackle that one. Slipping the air/oil separator hose off of the airbox is SUPER easy and convenient for me. At this point, no further modification is necessary.
- Chad

Virginia Beach + Gordonsville, Virginia, USA

Current rides:
2015 Ural cT "Mobile Chernobyl", 2001 Ural Patrol "The Patrol", 1999 Ural Tourist "The RPOC", 1994 Honda VFR750F

Previous rides:
2007 Honda VTR1000 FireStorm (Super Hawk in U.S.)
2001 Buell Blast! - - - - - - - 2005 Yamaha FJR1300
1993 Honda CBR600F2 - -1984 Yamaha FJ1100
Two different 1986 Yamaha FZX700S Fazers

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windmill
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by windmill » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:57 pm

Tomcatfixer wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:53 pm
The way the breather hoses lead to the the branch pipes, it's like it was meant to be used that way.
Yes, well, um, I guess it would... had... I... not... removed those... tubes...
-2019-01-30 18.52.13.jpg
Since the the oil issue is solved, maybe this is a reason to put them back in? I would suspect the closer the fluid gets to the cylinders the better?
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

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windmill
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by windmill » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:00 pm

Tomcatfixer wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:55 pm
now the fun can begin to make a portal into the breather/air cleaner that is easy to access and looks good.
You guys can tackle that one. Slipping the air/oil separator hose off of the airbox is SUPER easy and convenient for me. At this point, no further modification is necessary.
But, but a fancy, nifty T fitting in the breather hose would have more coolnessocity.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by Tomcatfixer » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:01 pm

Since the the oil issue is solved, maybe this is a reason to put them back in? I would suspect the closer the fluid gets to the cylinders the better?
I suppose I COULD, but I have the air/oil separator now, so I don't really NEED to reinstall the lil' branch tubes.
But, but a fancy, nifty T fitting in the breather hose would have more coolnessocity.
That it would. And I'm not above doing something just for the sake of doing it, but I've already got quite the backlog of projects, so.......
- Chad

Virginia Beach + Gordonsville, Virginia, USA

Current rides:
2015 Ural cT "Mobile Chernobyl", 2001 Ural Patrol "The Patrol", 1999 Ural Tourist "The RPOC", 1994 Honda VFR750F

Previous rides:
2007 Honda VTR1000 FireStorm (Super Hawk in U.S.)
2001 Buell Blast! - - - - - - - 2005 Yamaha FJR1300
1993 Honda CBR600F2 - -1984 Yamaha FJ1100
Two different 1986 Yamaha FZX700S Fazers

eastbloc
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by eastbloc » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:13 pm

The car battery seems to have helped a lot with starting as well. It was 20 today, but it's going down to 6 overnight so tomorrow will be a real test. The interesting thing is that it doesn't just help with the cranking -- the bike seemed literally unaffected by the cold today, it started the way it normally starts in warmer weather.

I suspect the decrease in available amps in the cold has some knock-on effects on some other electrical component required for starting, I'm thinking either the ECU itself or maybe the fuel pump.

I think between the car battery and the prime button (which I am going to figure out, I'm not content with the starting fluid solution) this problem will be permanently solved.
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