Hard starting '14.

Woe unto you that bought the first model year of a major remake, perhaps this section can help address any 2014 and later model Ural "imperfections". Here's a special section for folks with the latest rigs to discuss 2014 and later model-related topics such fuel injection, 3-wheel disc brakes, hydraulic steering dampers, spin-on oil filters and other anomalies that don't belong on true Russsian motorcycle ;-P We've gone from using big hammers and greasy wrenches to needing computers and Ouija boards in order to fix our rigs.
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Please keep this section specific to issues pertaining to 2014 and later models such as fuel injection, sidecar and rear disc brakes and so forth. Ask general or non-2014 and later specific questions in the main Hammerin' & Wrenchin' section.
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eastbloc
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Hard starting '14.

Post by eastbloc » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:09 pm

My Gear-Up was doing OK this summer. Still cold-blooded, but on a warm day I could even get her going with the kickstarter.

That was with the Raceway 2-into-1 header and single pontoon. Since I've changed back to OEM while I ponder how to keep the Raceway header from rusting to oblivion, starting has been difficult. Kickstarting is impossible, and even with the electric starter it took many cranks before she fires up reliably, and multiple restarts before she starts to idle regularly. She also takes a long time to warm up, though she runs fine and in decent tune once she does. But winter is coming, and starting is only going to get more difficult, so I decided to intervene.

I took apart and cleaned the throttle bodies and the injectors. I tested the injectors, showing that they fired reliably when the engine turned over, and tested the spark plugs, laying them on top of the cylinders and they showed nice decent spark. Next, I loosened the throttle cables and proceeded to try to set the idle using the adjustment screws. But I can't seem to find an adjustment screw position that results in the bike starting and maintaining an idle. They're either too open, and it doesn't start, or they're too closed, and it starts but immediately dies.

So I've got fuel, and I've got spark. I disconnected the branch tubes from the air box, so no obstructions there. There's plenty of vacuum at the throttle body intakes. And I can't get her to start and idle at all -- at best, I get a pitiful little sputter and I can keep it going with the starter for a while before the battery starts to lose cranking amps.

I'm pretty sure it's not the valves, because there's plenty of vacuum, and she was running fine before I swapped the exhaust, but I'll check that next. Also need to check the timing, something I haven't needed to figure out on a '14.

Question for the group: how many turns of the idle adjustment screw are between when it initially makes contact with the butterfly lever and where you have it set? Trying to sanity check this a bit!
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Tomcatfixer
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by Tomcatfixer » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:04 am

Question for the group: how many turns of the idle adjustment screw are between when it initially makes contact with the butterfly lever and where you have it set? Trying to sanity check this a bit!
I'm planning on performing the 'Chernobyl's 40,000km service this weekend. I can check for you then, when I verify throttle body synchronization.
- Chad

Gordonsville, Virginia, USA

Current rides:
2015 Ural cT "Mobile Chernobyl", 2001 Ural Patrol "The Patrol", 1999 Ural Tourist "The RPOC", 1994 Honda VFR750F

Previous rides:
2007 Honda VTR1000 FireStorm (Super Hawk in U.S.)
2001 Buell Blast! - - - - - - - 2005 Yamaha FJR1300
1993 Honda CBR600F2 - -1984 Yamaha FJ1100
Two different 1986 Yamaha FZX700S Fazers

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by hotflash44 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:18 am

eastbloc wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:09 pm
My Gear-Up was doing OK this summer. Still cold-blooded, but on a warm day I could even get her going with the kickstarter.

That was with the Raceway 2-into-1 header and single pontoon. Since I've changed back to OEM while I ponder how to keep the Raceway header from rusting to oblivion, starting has been difficult. Kickstarting is impossible, and even with the electric starter it took many cranks before she fires up reliably, and multiple restarts before she starts to idle regularly. She also takes a long time to warm up, though she runs fine and in decent tune once she does. But winter is coming, and starting is only going to get more difficult, so I decided to intervene.

I took apart and cleaned the throttle bodies and the injectors. I tested the injectors, showing that they fired reliably when the engine turned over, and tested the spark plugs, laying them on top of the cylinders and they showed nice decent spark. Next, I loosened the throttle cables and proceeded to try to set the idle using the adjustment screws. But I can't seem to find an adjustment screw position that results in the bike starting and maintaining an idle. They're either too open, and it doesn't start, or they're too closed, and it starts but immediately dies.

So I've got fuel, and I've got spark. I disconnected the branch tubes from the air box, so no obstructions there. There's plenty of vacuum at the throttle body intakes. And I can't get her to start and idle at all -- at best, I get a pitiful little sputter and I can keep it going with the starter for a while before the battery starts to lose cranking amps.

I'm pretty sure it's not the valves, because there's plenty of vacuum, and she was running fine before I swapped the exhaust, but I'll check that next. Also need to check the timing, something I haven't needed to figure out on a '14.

Question for the group: how many turns of the idle adjustment screw are between when it initially makes contact with the butterfly lever and where you have it set? Trying to sanity check this a bit!
You didn't mention ,but i would assume you have the proper software to check the throttle position. if you had it running where were the throttle balance bars on the soft ware graph? my OBDwiz shows mine at a steady 28/29 kpa at 900RPM. :?:
2016 gear up asphalt grey, name Seryy Medved ,Air America CIA circa 1967/8 Vung Tau Viet Nam USS Tutuila ARG-4 (AND JUST A TOUCH OF AGENT ORANGE!)

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by windmill » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:15 pm

Old battery? Corrosion on battery cable connections?

Modern electronics want strong, clean voltage.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by Lokiboy » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:54 pm

Might be too late, because of your adjustments, to put the Raceway back on to see if the problem persists
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by Albuquralque » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:09 pm

1. You can't check the timing, it's all controlled by the ECU.
2. If you don't have it, get the software and appropriate cables to check and balance the throttle bodies yourself.

Balance them at idle and make sure your idle is adjusted to 1050rpm (on a warmed up engine).

This should greatly help in your cold starting issues.

Coming from a 2014 owner, with well over 40,000 kms, starts on 2nd or third kick every morning.
"Put a little gravel in your travel"


Previous Urals Owned: 2004 Wolf, 2006 Tourist, 2006 Patrol (TOW), 2006 Patrol (TOM), 2014 Patrol

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by hotflash44 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:51 pm

what Darrell said +1 for sure, cant imagine tuning without the proper computer software. need more info on what you have adjusted and how it responded.like Darrell mentioned the timing is set at the factory, and i don't think it can be adjusted, so thats not the problem probably. is it possible the O2 sensors got screwed up during the swap back to OEM pipes? :? :cheers:
2016 gear up asphalt grey, name Seryy Medved ,Air America CIA circa 1967/8 Vung Tau Viet Nam USS Tutuila ARG-4 (AND JUST A TOUCH OF AGENT ORANGE!)

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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by eastbloc » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:32 pm

Thanks for the thoughts, fellas!

I’ve got a Twinmax with drilled and tapped throttle bodies which is how I’ve tuned before. I also have the OBD Link and a cable, so I’m good to go on that front. Neither of those help much when the bike doesn’t run though.

Battery is an Odyssey, new last season, not corroded and has 13.7 volts. The starter on my ‘14 has always seemed to take rather more cranking amps for a comparable amount of cranking relative to my older Urals.

The bike should start and run just fine without any O2 sensors, maybe not optimally in terms of fuel consumption but good enough to start and idle. Disconnecting them doesn’t change a thing about the behavior. Plus the injectors are firing just fine both when I remove them from the throttle bodies and when I disconnect the throttle bodies from the intake and watch their action.

One weird thing, even after cranking a bunch the spark plugs are bone dry when I take them out. Given how much the injectors seem to spray with each revolution, I’d expect them to at least be a little moist with gas.
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by Eric N » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:12 am

Couple observations about the Ural system, not sure if they help.

1) O2 sensors should be connected. This isn't a well engineered design, it's an aftermarket bolt on. What works on most motorcycles screws with the Ural EFI and my understanding is if the O2 are disconnected it kinda shuts some other parts off. It's Rube Goldberg and needs all the little bits wired up to work. Disconnecting bits doesn't put it in a default mode like other bikes.

2) There doesn't appear to be a throttle position sensor. I might be wrong, might be something you'd only find taking the whole thing apart. I have no clue how the bike reads throttle position, I think it has some other sensor/ logic vs a TPS.

3) My feeling, and it's just from tinkering is there's a default map for startup. Set screws don't change the fuel, only the air, on that default start map. Once the engine warms a little, the O2 sensors or other bits kick in to help the bike run and it switches over to the other sensor logic. Try to open throttle on a cold engine and it just dies because it hasn't switched over from the static cold map with fixed fuel to whatever dynamic sensor based system it uses for normal riding.

Can you get the bike started using the electric start, slightly rolling on throttle until the engine comes to life? If so, perhaps hold throttle with one hand and adjust the set screws with the other until they're holding that throttle position.
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by hotflash44 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:34 am

eastbloc wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:32 pm
Thanks for the thoughts, fellas!

I’ve got a Twinmax with drilled and tapped throttle bodies which is how I’ve tuned before. I also have the OBD Link and a cable, so I’m good to go on that front. Neither of those help much when the bike doesn’t run though.

Battery is an Odyssey, new last season, not corroded and has 13.7 volts. The starter on my ‘14 has always seemed to take rather more cranking amps for a comparable amount of cranking relative to my older Urals.

The bike should start and run just fine without any O2 sensors, maybe not optimally in terms of fuel consumption but good enough to start and idle. Disconnecting them doesn’t change a thing about the behavior. Plus the injectors are firing just fine both when I remove them from the throttle bodies and when I disconnect the throttle bodies from the intake and watch their action.

One weird thing, even after cranking a bunch the spark plugs are bone dry when I take them out. Given how much the injectors seem to spray with each revolution, I’d expect them to at least be a little moist with gas.
just thinking not sure if you mentioned, but have you got any engine light codes that help? :?:
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by Emoore » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:35 am

Does cracking the throttle a little while trying to start help? I ask because my 17 CT was doing that as well and cracking the throttle did get it to start. The end problem was the idle screws kept backing out on me. So I would adjust the throttle screws, get the bike started , run the bike and with the vibrations and movement of the bike would back the screws out....blue locktight fixed that.
Ernest
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by hotflash44 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:26 am

Emoore wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:35 am
Does cracking the throttle a little while trying to start help? I ask because my 17 CT was doing that as well and cracking the throttle did get it to start. The end problem was the idle screws kept backing out on me. So I would adjust the throttle screws, get the bike started , run the bike and with the vibrations and movement of the bike would back the screws out....blue locktight fixed that.
does the EFI Ural pressurize the fuel line when the key is turned on and pump buzzes? so that cracking the throttle a little will squirt gas into the throttle body before pushing the starter. sort of like a accelerator pump. if this is how it works, then that will help during a cold start IMO. :cheers:
2016 gear up asphalt grey, name Seryy Medved ,Air America CIA circa 1967/8 Vung Tau Viet Nam USS Tutuila ARG-4 (AND JUST A TOUCH OF AGENT ORANGE!)

eastbloc
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by eastbloc » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:53 pm

IMG_0480.jpg
This probably doesn't help!
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by Mr Wazzock » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:23 pm

A-HA! :D

Split complainance wotsit?

Eric N wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:12 am
2) There doesn't appear to be a throttle position sensor. I might be wrong, might be something you'd only find taking the whole thing apart. I have no clue how the bike reads throttle position, I think it has some other sensor/ logic vs a TPS.
One end of the butterfly shaft goes into the bit with the electonics in it (the ECU), pretty sure there's a potentiometer in there.

-
Mike H
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(aka Oranzhevaya Opasnost, "The Orange Peril")

eastbloc
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Re: Hard starting '14.

Post by eastbloc » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:58 pm

Yeah, I hate those things. I was hoping the FI design would do away with them, but they seem to be every bit as flakey as the old ones.
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