EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Woe unto you that bought the first model year of a major remake, perhaps this section can help address any 2014 and later model Ural "imperfections". Here's a special section for folks with the latest rigs to discuss 2014 and later model-related topics such fuel injection, 3-wheel disc brakes, hydraulic steering dampers, spin-on oil filters and other anomalies that don't belong on true Russsian motorcycle ;-P We've gone from using big hammers and greasy wrenches to needing computers and Ouija boards in order to fix our rigs.
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Please keep this section specific to issues pertaining to 2014 and later models such as fuel injection, sidecar and rear disc brakes and so forth. Ask general or non-2014 and later specific questions in the main Hammerin' & Wrenchin' section.
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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by sunnyboy » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:24 pm

POROMPOPERO wrote:More wood to the fire ... sorry
Some say (European forums) one or two things that may concern us. There are some respected experts who say that is not going to be possible to conciliate this engine with EFI technology. they will have to change a lot in admission and lower the mechanical tolerances. They speak in new valves and new shape of piston top surface .... As I understand wood and little else, for me is Chinese but coming from who came it may be true ....

AAAAAAAAAA! I just love these "respected experts" form European forums! Are these the same people who said we won't sell the bikes with disc brakes on the front in 2003? Maybe these are the same people who accused us in killing the spirit of Ural when we removed the machine gun mount in 2007? Or are these the same people who said we won't pass Euro-4 (yes, Euro-4) emission standards without developing a brand new engine? C'mon, give me a break ...

An EFI Ural exists. it consumes almost 20% less fuel (real life), it produces more torque (real life), and it provides overall much smoother ride (real life). Most importantly - for me, anyways, - you should not be a "carburetor" expert to own this bike.

Now, do we have issues with the new bikes? Yes. When the latest fuel map (we call it "emission map") was tested on our test bikes, it behaved very good, 9 out of 10, as our experts say - otherwise we would haven't released it. Are we puzzled why it behaves differently on some other bikes? Yes, we sure are. But we have some ideas why it works this way, we know what to do to make the engine work much better when it's cold, and we're going to do just that - improve it until it works perfect. I know we can do it.

Quite frankly, what concerns me more than the EFI mapping is the stuff like these crooked fork covers. This is inexcusable, and this has to be fixed.
As for the EFI - just go ride the bikes, people, we need your feedback, and more of it.

Ilya

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Re:

Post by Xradrider » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:06 am

Coluralado wrote:Alignment of headlight is off.

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I will check that. It seems crooked to me, when in riding position the left warning lights are covered by the dim speedo and the figment with the forks is asymmetric
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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by mgtibb » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:17 am

sunnyboy wrote:
POROMPOPERO wrote:More wood to the fire ... sorry
Some say (European forums) one or two things that may concern us. There are some respected experts who say that is not going to be possible to conciliate this engine with EFI technology. they will have to change a lot in admission and lower the mechanical tolerances. They speak in new valves and new shape of piston top surface .... As I understand wood and little else, for me is Chinese but coming from who came it may be true ....

AAAAAAAAAA! I just love these "respected experts" form European forums! Are these the same people who said we won't sell the bikes with disc brakes on the front in 2003? Maybe these are the same people who accused us in killing the spirit of Ural when we removed the machine gun mount in 2007? Or are these the same people who said we won't pass Euro-4 (yes, Euro-4) emission standards without developing a brand new engine? C'mon, give me a break ...

An EFI Ural exists. it consumes almost 20% less fuel (real life), it produces more torque (real life), and it provides overall much smoother ride (real life). Most importantly - for me, anyways, - you should not be a "carburetor" expert to own this bike.

Now, do we have issues with the new bikes? Yes. When the latest fuel map (we call it "emission map") was tested on our test bikes, it behaved very good, 9 out of 10, as our experts say - otherwise we would haven't released it. Are we puzzled why it behaves differently on some other bikes? Yes, we sure are. But we have some ideas why it works this way, we know what to do to make the engine work much better when it's cold, and we're going to do just that - improve it until it works perfect. I know we can do it.

Quite frankly, what concerns me more than the EFI mapping is the stuff like these crooked fork covers. This is inexcusable, and this has to be fixed.
As for the EFI - just go ride the bikes, people, we need your feedback, and more of it.

Ilya
And this is why I love Ural. You will never get a response like this on any other motorcycle forum from the CEO of the company. :cheers:
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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by tx2sturgis » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:40 am

POROMPOPERO wrote: There are some respected experts who say that is not going to be possible to conciliate this engine with EFI technology. they will have to change a lot in admission and lower the mechanical tolerances. They speak in new valves and new shape of piston top surface ....

Sounds like BS to me. Once the proper fuel/air mix is in the cylinder, the damn valves and pistons dont care much how it got in there.

Valve timing, cam profile, and piston shape DO have an effect on power and fuel consumption, but they have that effect no matter which way the fuel and air got in the cylinder.

There is a lot of historical evidence of bike manufacturers going from carbs to EFI on the same basic engine...Harley-Davidson comes to mine. Honda? Yep. The others too.

After the bugs are worked out...(I suspect its related to altitude and the exhaust sensors)...I'm sure it will be a fine system. A simple factory switch wired to the ECU, on the handlebars, (with settings for cold/richer and warm/leaner) might help.

But...I will stick with carbs for now. Since the local dealer is no longer open, it would be an 800 mile round trip to a dealer for an 'update'....no thank you.

I'm happy with my 2013 after the carb tuning I've done.

:thumbsup:
Last edited by tx2sturgis on Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by Albuquralque » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:40 am

To help support Sunnyboy's comments......

I am still running EFI map 1.3. I go out to my rig everymorning, hit the estart and it starts right up, idles fine, and I can let it sit there for a couple of minutes warming up. I drive it 16 miles or so each day to work, and it is smooth, comfortable, and a complete joy to ride. When I get off of work, the routine is much the same.

Don't get me wrong, I love wrenching on a Ural, but there is also great satisfaction in knowing the rig is going to run right everytime I get on it!

:thumbsup:
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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by POROMPOPERO » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:19 am

mgtibb wrote:
sunnyboy wrote:
POROMPOPERO wrote:More wood to the fire ... sorry
Some say (European forums) one or two things that may concern us. There are some respected experts who say that is not going to be possible to conciliate this engine with EFI technology. they will have to change a lot in admission and lower the mechanical tolerances. They speak in new valves and new shape of piston top surface .... As I understand wood and little else, for me is Chinese but coming from who came it may be true ....

AAAAAAAAAA! I just love these "respected experts" form European forums! Are these the same people who said we won't sell the bikes with disc brakes on the front in 2003? Maybe these are the same people who accused us in killing the spirit of Ural when we removed the machine gun mount in 2007? Or are these the same people who said we won't pass Euro-4 (yes, Euro-4) emission standards without developing a brand new engine? C'mon, give me a break ...

An EFI Ural exists. it consumes almost 20% less fuel (real life), it produces more torque (real life), and it provides overall much smoother ride (real life). Most importantly - for me, anyways, - you should not be a "carburetor" expert to own this bike.
Now, do we have issues with the new bikes? Yes. When the latest fuel map (we call it "emission map") was tested on our test bikes, it behaved very good, 9 out of 10, as our experts say - otherwise we would haven't released it. Are we puzzled why it behaves differently on some other bikes? Yes, we sure are. But we have some ideas why it works this way, we know what to do to make the engine work much better when it's cold, and we're going to do just that - improve it until it works perfect. I know we can do it.

Quite frankly, what concerns me more than the EFI mapping is the stuff like these crooked fork covers. This is inexcusable, and this has to be fixed.
As for the EFI - just go ride the bikes, people, we need your feedback, and more of it.

Ilya
And this is why I love Ural. You will never get a response like this on any other motorcycle forum from the CEO of the company. :cheers:
I do not know if they are the same people or not, I am aware of much that concerns the ural and never heard any of that you said. To the contrary, all changes that you talk seemed welcome by everyone around here.
As for the tone, i think what would be more appropriate listening who have something to say, even if it seems far from solving the problem. My suggestion would be to ask who said instead of wasting opinions that are not malicious.
But maybe you're right, the Ural needs no contrary opinions since already have the solution path for the good of all. Let`s wait to celebrate.
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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by JohnBG » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:26 pm

Xradrider wrote:Took my 14 GU out for an evening ride and noticed that I can't see much of the speedometer, the light is weak and flickers. Is it another of the character traits of the Ural? Not that I am concerned about breaking any land speed records.

Also can tell you that the hesitation gets better as the engine warms up with occasional hiccups after that.

Have you noticed the sloppy fit of the new dash or is it just mine?
Either that our your headlight is cocked off to the side.
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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by Roadking » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:25 pm

Coluralado wrote:To help support Sunnyboy's comments......

I am still running EFI map 1.3. I go out to my rig everymorning, hit the estart and it starts right up, idles fine, and I can let it sit there for a couple of minutes warming up. I drive it 16 miles or so each day to work, and it is smooth, comfortable, and a complete joy to ride. When I get off of work, the routine is much the same.

Don't get me wrong, I love wrenching on a Ural, but there is also great satisfaction in knowing the rig is going to run right everytime I get on it!

:thumbsup:
Couldn't agree more. I hit the start button once, and it starts. I let it idle for a few minutes, and it stays running with no attention needed. I get on, and ride. It rides smooth, no issues.
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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by POROMPOPERO » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:53 pm

Roadking wrote:
Coluralado wrote:To help support Sunnyboy's comments......

I am still running EFI map 1.3. I go out to my rig everymorning, hit the estart and it starts right up, idles fine, and I can let it sit there for a couple of minutes warming up. I drive it 16 miles or so each day to work, and it is smooth, comfortable, and a complete joy to ride. When I get off of work, the routine is much the same.

Don't get me wrong, I love wrenching on a Ural, but there is also great satisfaction in knowing the rig is going to run right everytime I get on it!

:thumbsup:
Couldn't agree more. I hit the start button once, and it starts. I let it idle for a few minutes, and it stays running with no attention needed. I get on, and ride. It rides smooth, no issues.


is not a question of supporting or not Ilya, it seems clear to me that we (here) all support Ilya, at least the logic so determines. It is just a technical opinion, with or without value, of people trying to help. It`s up to Ilya to separate what matters from what does not.
What I heard is that some guys in france made ​​some changes in the compression rate and obtained good results with this EFI, hence they concluded that this would be the way. If they`re right or not i don`t know, but if this is enough to get some "nice" comments by Ilya ... think not.

Good to know that your bikes behave well, as indeed many others I know. It is also good that the 2014 owners who are happy with the bikes (the majority), say here again and again (as you do) to let people know the truth about this issue and not just the bad part as almost always happens.
Ural: keep remind me who i am whenever you feel i`ve forgot it

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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by POROMPOPERO » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:05 pm

tx2sturgis wrote:
POROMPOPERO wrote: There are some respected experts who say that is not going to be possible to conciliate this engine with EFI technology. they will have to change a lot in admission and lower the mechanical tolerances. They speak in new valves and new shape of piston top surface ....

Sounds like BS to me. Once the proper fuel/air mix is in the cylinder, the damn valves and pistons dont care much how it got in there.

Valve timing, cam profile, and piston shape DO have an effect on power and fuel consumption, but they have that effect no matter which way the fuel and air got in the cylinder.

There is a lot of historical evidence of bike manufacturers going from carbs to EFI on the same basic engine...Harley-Davidson comes to mine. Honda? Yep. The others too.

After the bugs are worked out...(I suspect its related to altitude and the exhaust sensors)...I'm sure it will be a fine system. A simple factory switch wired to the ECU, on the handlebars, (with settings for cold/richer and warm/leaner) might help.

But...I will stick with carbs for now. Since the local dealer is no longer open, it would be an 800 mile round trip to a dealer for an 'update'....no thank you.

I'm happy with my 2013 after the carb tuning I've done.

:thumbsup:
As i`ve told before, i just know a thing or two about wood ... but yes , you seem right to me it sounds logical.
Can you tell me what was the carb tuning that you`ve made? I`ve just ordered a 2013 T and i expect to make some mods in the carbs too, even if my dealer says it`s not going to need it. you never know.
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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by cdscoot » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:06 pm

Xradrider wrote:Took my 14 GU out for an evening ride and noticed that I can't see much of the speedometer, the light is weak and flickers. Is it another of the character traits of the Ural? Not that I am concerned about breaking any land speed records.

Also can tell you that the hesitation gets better as the engine warms up with occasional hiccups after that.

Have you noticed the sloppy fit of the new dash or is it just mine?
Yours looks wonkered .
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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by cdscoot » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:25 pm

Coluralado wrote:To help support Sunnyboy's comments......

I am still running EFI map 1.3. I go out to my rig everymorning, hit the estart and it starts right up, idles fine, and I can let it sit there for a couple of minutes warming up. I drive it 16 miles or so each day to work, and it is smooth, comfortable, and a complete joy to ride. When I get off of work, the routine is much the same.

Don't get me wrong, I love wrenching on a Ural, but there is also great satisfaction in knowing the rig is going to run right everytime I get on it!

:thumbsup:
Well I still have carbs to play with if you get bored ! 8)
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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by Albuquralque » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:58 pm

cdscoot wrote:
Coluralado wrote:To help support Sunnyboy's comments......

I am still running EFI map 1.3. I go out to my rig everymorning, hit the estart and it starts right up, idles fine, and I can let it sit there for a couple of minutes warming up. I drive it 16 miles or so each day to work, and it is smooth, comfortable, and a complete joy to ride. When I get off of work, the routine is much the same.

Don't get me wrong, I love wrenching on a Ural, but there is also great satisfaction in knowing the rig is going to run right everytime I get on it!

:thumbsup:
Well I still have carbs to play with if you get bored ! 8)
Don't think I'll get that bored! :lol:
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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by 54vintage » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:28 am

Coluralado wrote:To help support Sunnyboy's comments......

I am still running EFI map 1.3. I go out to my rig everymorning, hit the estart and it starts right up, idles fine, and I can let it sit there for a couple of minutes warming up. I drive it 16 miles or so each day to work, and it is smooth, comfortable, and a complete joy to ride. When I get off of work, the routine is much the same.

Don't get me wrong, I love wrenching on a Ural, but there is also great satisfaction in knowing the rig is going to run right everytime I get on it!

:thumbsup:
I'm now nearing 700KM and the bike is starting to settle into itself....after it warms up a bit, it runs just fine. For darn sure it doesn't like to be cold....cough-spit-fart....give it a few minutes and it's a different animal.

"You'll get my 2014 GU only when you pry my cold dead fingers from it"

:wink:
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Re: EFI mapping....yea or nay ???

Post by sunnyboy » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:11 am

POROMPOPERO wrote:
Roadking wrote:
Coluralado wrote:To help support Sunnyboy's comments......

I am still running EFI map 1.3. I go out to my rig everymorning, hit the estart and it starts right up, idles fine, and I can let it sit there for a couple of minutes warming up. I drive it 16 miles or so each day to work, and it is smooth, comfortable, and a complete joy to ride. When I get off of work, the routine is much the same.

Don't get me wrong, I love wrenching on a Ural, but there is also great satisfaction in knowing the rig is going to run right everytime I get on it!

:thumbsup:
Couldn't agree more. I hit the start button once, and it starts. I let it idle for a few minutes, and it stays running with no attention needed. I get on, and ride. It rides smooth, no issues.


is not a question of supporting or not Ilya, it seems clear to me that we (here) all support Ilya, at least the logic so determines. It is just a technical opinion, with or without value, of people trying to help. It`s up to Ilya to separate what matters from what does not.
What I heard is that some guys in france made ​​some changes in the compression rate and obtained good results with this EFI, hence they concluded that this would be the way. If they`re right or not i don`t know, but if this is enough to get some "nice" comments by Ilya ... think not.

Good to know that your bikes behave well, as indeed many others I know. It is also good that the 2014 owners who are happy with the bikes (the majority), say here again and again (as you do) to let people know the truth about this issue and not just the bad part as almost always happens.
Did not mean to ofence you, really. What I was trying to say is that we need first hand experience at this point more than anything else. No matter how many tests you do, the serial product and real life experience is completely different story. As of now there are no serial bikes ridden in Europe vs. close to fifty here in the States. What you read on Eurpean forums are theories, interesting maybe, but theories.

We don't see major issues with the current EFI mapping. From what we hear, there are two areas for improvements:
- the mixture seems a bit too lean at the start and low RPM,
- the new map seems not behaving as well at higher elevation.
Nothing which can't be solved with even more testing and tweaking with software.

Ilya

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