Right Hand Turn Technique

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davep
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Right Hand Turn Technique

Post by davep » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:14 am

I've been reading "The Sidecar Guide" by Rod Young, "Driving a Sidecar Outfit" ( the yellow book), and "Sidecar 2003" by Hal Kendall. I'M confused by the recommended right turn technique when the car just begins to fly.
Young says to accelerate, the yellow book says to apply more front brake, and Kendall says to reduce speed or straighten out the curve.
My understanding of the physics involved agree with Kendall- I can't imagine how accelerating "plants the sidecar". Maybe I'm not understanding the written words.
So, what is the best technique?
Should I always drag the front brake through the turn?
Thanks in advance.
Dave

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Tomcatfixer
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Re: Right Hand Turn Technique

Post by Tomcatfixer » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:40 am

I accelerate a bit through right hand curves, which causes the bike to yaw right, helping me to tighten-up my line. Of course, this only works if you have a sufficiently slow corner entry speed. Enter too hot and the chair will fly, causing you to run wide into oncoming traffic.

Similarly, I ease off the throttle through speedy left-handers, which allows the hack inertia to yaw the bike left into the curve.

I typically only use either of these techniques when riding in a spirited manner. For normal, rational riding, I find neither necessary. Instead, I just enter the corner at a safe speed and maintain a steady throttle through the curve.
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Current rides:
2015 Ural cT "Mobile Chernobyl", 2001 Ural Patrol "Little Red Bear", 1999 Ural Tourist "The RPOC", Mid-Nineties Ural Tourist "The Heap", 1994 Honda VFR750F, 2007 BMW K1200GT

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2007 Honda VTR1000 FireStorm (Super Hawk in U.S.)
2001 Buell Blast! - - - - - - - 2005 Yamaha FJR1300
1993 Honda CBR600F2 - -1984 Yamaha FJ1100
Two different 1986 Yamaha FZX700S Fazers

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stovokor
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Re: Right Hand Turn Technique

Post by stovokor » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:45 am

When the chair starts to rise it's because too much centrifugal force. You have to increase the radius of the turn or reduce speed.

Or ride through the turn with the sidecar in the air.

I'm not an expert or an instructor but I have advised a lot of new owners. Go slow in RH turns until you learn what the bike will do. Learn to fly the chair or at least learn not to panic if it comes up. Many people do panic, brake, steer straight into the oncoming lane and scare themselves stupid. That's when you find their low mile rig up on Cycletrader.

Go slow around RH turns. Practice.
Alan B
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Re: Right Hand Turn Technique

Post by Tin Man » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:38 pm

Once I figured out the geometry of these critters turns became much less of an issue. Moving your body makes all the difference. There are times that I am literally sitting on the edge of the hack in a RH curve at 50-60 mph......as has been said, find an empty parking lot and practice all of it. And for flying the chair: make sure your tire pressure is correct, ya don't wanna roll a underinflated tire off the rim......... :foilhead:
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Re: Right Hand Turn Technique

Post by vetsurginc » Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:54 am

When your powering on against some front brake (control speed and unload rear tire) you are sideslipping the rear tire (mini-drift?) I'm usually hanging over the sidecar so probably unloading rear tire by shifting weight from seat to pegs. Try it in dirt first to get a feel for the skid.

As Tin Man said " practice all of it."

I try hard not to reach that state.
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Re: Right Hand Turn Technique

Post by Canadian FJR » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:23 am

http://welcome-ural.ru/documents/HowToRideUral.pdf

Body language goes a long way. I find leaning your body at 2:00 leaning between the bike and the sidecar works best for me. Plenty of twisty back roads around here to practice on.

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Re: Right Hand Turn Technique

Post by sagerat » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:16 pm

The other tactic on a RH turn to tighten your line is to simultaneously add the tiniest bit of front brake while gently rolling on a bit of throttle.
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Snakeoil
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Re: Right Hand Turn Technique

Post by Snakeoil » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:38 am

Reading all the replies made me chuckle because I remember a lot of similar "moments" when I first got the rig.

My RH turn experience and procedures changed dramatically (to me anyway) once I got the true feel for flying the chair. The first the the chair flew by surprise, I did exactly what Chad described and veered into the opposite lane. I immediately knew I had to learn to fly the chair or my sidecar days would be limited. There was no oncoming traffic as I was on a rural road.

So, the flying exercise was using a long parking pull-off area down the road that is never used. Has a curve going in and going out that is either right or left depending on your direction of travel. I flipped the car up and came close to soiling myself the first time. But knowing others do it provided the confidence to take that leap of faith and continue to get it up and try to keep it up. Took about a half hour to get comfy with flying the chair and could get it up and keep it up at will and fly it the length of that pull off road. With that accomplished I headed home and when I turned down our road, which is 1/2 mile long, I flipped the car up and kept it there all the way down the road, around a left hander and then all the way to the dead end.

Since then, I fly it now and again only to maintain the feel. I know it puts a big side load on the spoke so I don't make a habit of it. But, the feel for the hack flying is part of me now and when I make a quick right into a parking lot, the chair often comes up a bit and I just ride thru the turn with the chair up until it settles back down. I don't accelerate as that would lift it higher or keep it flying. I stay steady and it settles back down as the turn itself will scrub some speed off the rig. So, I guess I'm really decelerating. I normally make a tight right hander with the throttle chopped and not turning it up until the turn is complete or nearly so. I'm at least beyond the apex.

I don't have Young's book so I cannot read what is said myself to see it in context. My guess is when accelerate is suggested, it might mean to accelerate forward meaning to straighten out the turn a bit. That's okay if you have room. I would not suggest that technique in traffic.

The suggestion to practice in a parking lot is right on the money. Get so you can fly the chair at will and feel confident to the point that is actually fun to do. Then make some short quick turns to feel that wheel start to lift. For me, it is almost like the rig gets a tad lighter at that moment. Not sure of a better way to describe it. And it could be that the tire is still in contact with the road, but the load has been removed. Once you are confident flying the chair, make some turns with the chair in the air. Lefts are easy. Rights a bit more of a challenge. But once you do, your fear of the dreaded right hander will fade and you'll be a much safer rider.
Regards,
Rob
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Re: Right Hand Turn Technique

Post by TomsFunMachine » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:54 am

davep wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:14 am
Young says to accelerate, the yellow book says to apply more front brake, and Kendall says to reduce speed or straighten out the curve.
My understanding of the physics involved agree with Kendall- I can't imagine how accelerating "plants the sidecar".
Side car rigs have this odd handling characteristic unlike any car or motorcycle, was hard for me to wrap my head around at first, but after someone mentioned it on this forum, I 'got it', riding my Ural became a lot easier.

Here goes:

While riding in a straight line, chop the throttle, that is, twist the throttle closed, suddenly. What you will experience is the bike pivots or yaws about 10degrees to the left, as if the side car wants to keep moving, and the bike wants to slow down. This happens without any handlebar input whatsoever. Use this to your advantage while 'setting up' for a left hand turn.

Same drill, riding in a straight line, twist the throttle wide open. You will notice the bike do the opposite as I described, above, it pivots or yaws to the right 10degrees. Without any handlebar input. As if the bike it trying to overtake the side car. Use this to your advantage while 'setting up' for a right hand turn. I will say that if you go into a right hander a little 'hot', the chair starts to lift, intuition does not tell you to give 'er more throttle, your brain says "no no no". But if you do, you get that 10 degrees I explained above, better, you get some bonus pivoting or yaw, as the slip angle of the rear 'pusher' tire increases.That is, the rear tire is propelling you forward and sliding a little sideways at the same time, adding to that 10 degrees. Try it in a parking lot, it does works in theory as well as in practice.

I've personally had only some luck with the front brake method, but shifting my weight around works well, sliding my butt from one side to the other across my flat top saddle helps with that. Using the throttle and shifting my weight around together seems to work well for me. I have no idea 'which is best', I'm still a novice myself.
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Re: Right Hand Turn Technique

Post by Snakeoil » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:30 pm

Not arguing, just not 100% convinced that if the hack wheel is off the ground that you'll get that 10 degree right turn input. Although just the inertia of the hack may very well be enough to make the rig want to pivot a bit right. Agree that the proof is in the pudding and trying it out in an open parking lot will answer the question.

This is one of those things like going into a corner way too hot on a solo bike and not grabbing a handful of front brake when your survival instincts try to take over. The first time you just ride the bike thru the corner is a leap of faith. But it only takes once and that feeling is hard to forget after that.
Regards,
Rob
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Re: Right Hand Turn Technique

Post by CamaroEric » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:00 pm

Best technique:
Go to an empty parking lot and learn at what speed vs sharpness of turn causes the sidecar wheel to lift.
Adjust body position to compensate.
Learn to navigate a turn on 2 wheels - for when it happens.
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davep
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Re: Right Hand Turn Technique

Post by davep » Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:10 pm

I found this article to be helpful:
http://www.bmwmotorcycletech.info/sidec ... eering.htm
It clears up some questions I had.

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Lmo
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Re: Right Hand Turn Technique

Post by Lmo » Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:45 pm

An old standby from the Wilkinson Brothers...

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