Deep Sump Question

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Bigbikerrick
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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by Bigbikerrick » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:06 pm

Who makes the extended oil pickup?Is it a Ural part, or aftermarket accessory? Can it be added to the existing oil pump, or does the pump have to be changed?
Thanks
Rick
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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by Wildhorse Cafe » Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:10 pm

Bigbikerrick wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:06 pm
Who makes the extended oil pickup?Is it a Ural part, or aftermarket accessory? Can it be added to the existing oil pump, or does the pump have to be changed?
Thanks
Rick
Check with your dealer first then Raceway. Crawford's has it for sure. Works with both types of oil pumps, the only difference between the two is the size of the gears. Its a bit of a pain to put in, jack up the bike pulling the sump. I would pull the pump and put the sleeve on on the bench. Safety wiring it under the bike can be done with a lot of patience but easier on the bench. Be very careful torquing the pump back in it is so easy to strip out the bolt holes in the soft crankcase meatal, the torque specs are in the manual. The same caution need to be observed with the sump bolts, Helicoils are part of my tool kit just in case. Order a replacement oil pump gasket, they are very fragile so be careful again (order 2).
I Just remembered it all has to be done from under the bike including safety wire.
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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by Bigbikerrick » Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:03 am

Fantastic discussion, Folks! Lots of great information,and common sense knowledge shared here. Thank You all! Tom, The VW story is incredible! As an old air cooled VW fan,I thoroughly enjoyed it. You were the VW Guru of Gurus! Very cool!
Rick.
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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by TomsFunMachine » Wed May 05, 2021 8:51 pm

Bigbikerrick wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:03 am
Fantastic discussion, Folks! Lots of great information,and common sense knowledge shared here. Thank You all! Tom, The VW story is incredible! As an old air cooled VW fan,I thoroughly enjoyed it. You were the VW Guru of Gurus! Very cool!
Rick.
Very good Rick, glad you enjoyed it.

I was afraid my re-telling the story was lost in all the back and forth about weather or not a deep sump, and oil cooler, help with cooling of a Ural engine. Glad you enjoyed it :cheers:

Being a VW guy, I know that air-cooled VW engines are actually Air/Oil-cooled. That is, the under valve cover area sees a relatively large volume of oil, which carries away heat as it drains back into the sump by way of the 4 per side 3/4" diameter pushrod tubes and gravity. The factory vw oil cooler does a pretty good job augmenting air cooling. An aftermarket remote mounted oil cooler and fan, really helps a larger displacement bored and stroked vw engine.

But someone pointed out that unlike a VW engine, the Ural head's oil return hole is tiny (pushrod tubes on top are no help), and therefore can't flow much, nor carry away much heat from the Ural cylinder heads. Therefore it seems heat from a Ural's cylinders and heads is carried away by air flow, and conduction to the case and oil it contains. The insignificant head oil flow does little to cool, therefore cooling the oil has little value, is the theory.

It would seem a straightforward A-B-A test conducted using dual cylinder head temp gauges, an oil temp gauge, would put the question to rest. Such a test would tell someone if a deep sump, high volume oil pump, auxiliary cooler made a measurable difference.

So who's going to step up and perform a test?
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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by mr. cob » Fri May 07, 2021 5:13 pm

Howdy All,

It's been a long time since I have allowed myself to be sucked into an oil-oil pan discussion but having voiced strong opinions on this subject in the past, ah hell why not throw my 2 cents worth in.

I have long advocated AGAINST the deep sump pan for cooling purposes, in the case of the Ural in my and many others opinion it just doesn't help. As to high tech oil, why not just use a good quality regular oil and change it often that way you can keep the insides of your engine CLEAN and SEE any crap is in the oil alerting you to a potential problem before it leaves you stranded on the side of the road.

As to oil coolers, on a Ural there isn't enough oil passing through the heads to provide much cooling so even if the oil is a tad cooler it's not going to have much to do with reducing cylinder head and top of piston cooling.

I have been pretty much out of the Ural riding and discussion community for the last three years, serious health problems culminating in having both knees replaced and spinal surgery have resulted in my possibly again becoming a common and participating member of this band of miscreants. That said the last time I was down at little Irbit, about 2 years ago Sergey, was working on something that has been used in Diesel Engines for decades, oil being sprayed under pressure to the underside of the pistons, THIS greatly reduces piston temperature. With this covid crap and my not being involved with IMWA's testing anymore I have no idea if this experiment was pursued or shelved along with many other ideas that have come up in the past that due to lack of funding were never carried through to production.

Dave
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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by RC20 » Sat May 08, 2021 3:28 pm

Just picking one aspect, Oil itself. Yes a regular oil works, change it per schedule and pretty much good.

Where synthetic has advantages is if you wind up with an extreme condition and the oil is pushed, it may save your engine. Not likely up here but hot climates, steep hills, possible. More sump means more latitude for an oil that is not fully up to snuff anymore in a smaller sump but is spread out in the larger sump and still good.

Where synthetic pays i up here is cold engine starting. The cranking is a lot easier. That alone is worth it.

Now yes I grew up in the days where regular oil worked and I had no issues as far as known breakdowns or premature wear out. I sure had start issues.

Of some relevance , we have a 2005 VW diesel. Oil change is listed at 10,000 miles (regardless of use unlike the old days where in town use was considered harsh service and on road was easier).

Member of the VW group have done oil analysis and found they could stretch that to 15,000 miles. I never did. But it says volumes that a diesel application in a (3.5 quart) sump was given full factory approval for 10k miles with no restriction tells you something about the characteristic of synthetic oil.

note: Most diesels do not require syntactic oil. The VW in the 2.0 diesel did due to the type of fuel injection used, its a Unit Injector (a lobe on the cam up in the head pushes the injector. Most system used a Pump mounted on the side or the valley of the engine, steel line and what was in the cylinder was a NOZZLE. The Unit injector combines that in a single that looks like a nozzle (not new, Detroit Diesel and Cummins used it since the 30s)
VW opted to make modify the 2.0 diesel from pump to Unit Injector for emissions needs. So under the valve cover is three cam lobes. In order to do that for the Unit Injector lobe to fit, they had to be thinned out.
VW found they had to have an extreme pressure elements in the oil to make that work and went with synthetic to get it. A rare case of where you damned well better use their oil as other oils are not tested for that spec
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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by stagewex » Sat May 08, 2021 3:32 pm

Feel/Heal better Dave (Mr. Cob).
I can't speak to spine surgery but those that have had the knee-replacement always say "why didn't I do this sooner". My Dad included, both of them.
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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by mr. cob » Sat May 08, 2021 5:07 pm

stagewex wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 3:32 pm
Feel/Heal better Dave (Mr. Cob).
I can't speak to spine surgery but those that have had the knee-replacement always say "why didn't I do this sooner". My Dad included, both of them.
Howdy stagewax,

Thanks for your well wishes they are greatly appreciated. It's been two years since the first knee was done on August 12th the second was done on October 12th, I am now about 95% pain free and walking better then I was before the surgeries, that said it's hard to explain the loss of over all body strength those surgeries took from me, maybe not others but they knocked me down hard. The spinal surgery was 100% successful so I am getting better and regaining strength but stiffness is still a problem in the knees and being in one position for a long period such as sitting on a motorcycle where your movement is limited causes problems.

Fact is I haven't ridden my Ural, the only one I have left in my stable is the Predator, for over a year, the last time I rode it after about 50 miles my knees hurt so bad I had a very hard time making it back home. I am going to give riding it a try in the next few days after I reinstall the battery, clean the carbs put air in the tires and all the stuff one has to do after neglecting a machine for so long. If it goes well I'll probably again become active in the Ural community, if not I'll get serious about selling it and all the MANY parts I have accumulated over the last 16 years of being a hard core Uralista.

Dave
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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by jvan1954 » Sat May 08, 2021 5:16 pm

Mr Cob, I hope your recovery goes well. The Ural world is a better place with you in it. Good luck on the ride.
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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by mr. cob » Sat May 08, 2021 5:17 pm

jvan1954 wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:16 pm
Mr Cob, I hope your recovery goes well. The Ural world is a better place with you in it. Good luck on the ride.
Howdy Jerry,

Thank you.

Dave
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The "Canyon Acrobat" a 2008 Gear-Up, and the "Kraken" a 2013/14 Gear-Up, have been sold and no longer in my stable.

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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by windmill » Sat May 08, 2021 5:36 pm

Hi Dave,
Good to hear from you, hope all goes well. :cheers:

When/if you feel up to it, I would really like to get together with you for a easy ride. My bad ankle and knees will probably need attention in a few years too, so I don't do long rides, or serious off road anymore because of them.
Barry

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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by mr. cob » Sat May 08, 2021 5:53 pm

windmill wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 5:36 pm
Hi Dave,
Good to hear from you, hope all goes well. :cheers:

When/if you feel up to it, I would really like to get together with you for a easy ride. My bad ankle and knees will probably need attention in a few years too, so I don't do long rides, or serious off road anymore because of them.
Howdy Barry,

I swear it wasn't my intent to divert this thread but it appears that "I" did inadvertently start a thread hi-jack something I have whined about for years. For that I do apologize.

That said, Barry we haven't seen or rode with each other for a long time and I miss that, I truly do. I am going to try giving being a Uralista another honest try and I do hope it goes well as being so engrossed in the Ural has been one of the most frustrating but at the same time satisfying things I have done in my life. One of the things that I simply won't be able to do anymore is the hard off road riding that I so enjoyed, these new knees are pi$$ poor shock absorbers and not being able to stand for long periods on the pegs to take up the shocks of off road riding is something I just can't do anymore.

I was dealing with IMWA a year ago to see if I could get a newer demo rig, that was going well until I took a ride on my remaining Ural and the pain set in, I couldn't see getting another Ural if it was very painful to ride so I just kinda let that opportunity slide. If I can ride the Predator, on the street and not be in pain I will probably approach IMWA again and see if I can't get something going on a demo rig if it should become available, sell the Predator and all the parts I have and just ride a street Ural. That sounds so BORING but it would be better then not riding one of these damnedable contraptions that I have come to have such a lasting love/hate relationship with that I do honestly miss.

Dave
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Driver of the "Predator" a highly modified 2005 Gear-Up.

The "Canyon Acrobat" a 2008 Gear-Up, and the "Kraken" a 2013/14 Gear-Up, have been sold and no longer in my stable.

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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by TomsFunMachine » Mon May 10, 2021 9:53 am

mr. cob wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 5:13 pm
... oil being sprayed under pressure to the underside of the pistons, THIS greatly reduces piston temperature...
Dave
Hey Dave, here's to a speedy recovery and you getting back on two or three wheels! :cheers:

Funny you should mention the above, as that was one of the things that comes to my mind as well. I've known about piston squirters for a while now, have been tempted to add them to one of my acvw race engines, but haven't yet.

Porsche used them on some of their turbocharged performance/race engines dating back to the 1970's, to keep the crown from melting into the top ring land. A phenomenon I've seen first hand as a result of high-boost lean out where the fuel system couldn't keep up.

I found this little jewel on youtube this morning that is worth a watch, the present talks about motorcycle history where Tom Sifton (Sifton Cams) added squirters to the KR Harley race engines to keep them from scuffing and melting pistons. He shows and example of a Honda CBR engine that came off the assembly line with a piston-cooling spray bar, and shows an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBYaF1BYrCA

As I understand it, a Porsche piston squirter is installed by machining a hole into the case, that points toward the underside of the piston, drilled such that it intersects with the main bearing oil gallery. Porsche squirters are either a press or thread-in fit, I'm not sure. The squirters themselves employ an integral ball and spring check valve, such that the squirters are closed off during low oil volume and pressure situations like idle and low rpm. Rev the engine up, so goes oil pressure, the pressure overcomes the check valve and a tiny stream of oil pees onto the underside of the piston crown, cooling it. One of my vw friends reportedly used thread in MIG welding tips, wo/check valves, I'm not sure how well that worked.

The below video link shows a guy testing squirters during a 6cyl ac Porsche engine rebuild, which came stock with them I understand now :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97-0XwvGvkI

Going deeper down the rabbit hole:
It looks like the LS V8 guys have jumped on this mod, not surprising with add-on supercharger and twin turbo LS engines making 100hp per hole these days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Cljwe1dkdc
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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by mr. cob » Mon May 10, 2021 2:17 pm

TomsFunMachine wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 9:53 am
mr. cob wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 5:13 pm
... oil being sprayed under pressure to the underside of the pistons, THIS greatly reduces piston temperature...
Dave
Hey Dave, here's to a speedy recovery and you getting back on two or three wheels! :cheers:

Funny you should mention the above, as that was one of the things that comes to my mind as well. I've known about piston squirters for a while now, have been tempted to add them to one of my acvw race engines, but haven't yet.

Porsche used them on some of their turbocharged performance/race engines dating back to the 1970's, to keep the crown from melting into the top ring land. A phenomenon I've seen first hand as a result of high-boost lean out where the fuel system couldn't keep up.

I found this little jewel on youtube this morning that is worth a watch, the present talks about motorcycle history where Tom Sifton (Sifton Cams) added squirters to the KR Harley race engines to keep them from scuffing and melting pistons. He shows and example of a Honda CBR engine that came off the assembly line with a piston-cooling spray bar, and shows an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBYaF1BYrCA

As I understand it, a Porsche piston squirter is installed by machining a hole into the case, that points toward the underside of the piston, drilled such that it intersects with the main bearing oil gallery. Porsche squirters are either a press or thread-in fit, I'm not sure. The squirters themselves employ an integral ball and spring check valve, such that the squirters are closed off during low oil volume and pressure situations like idle and low rpm. Rev the engine up, so goes oil pressure, the pressure overcomes the check valve and a tiny stream of oil pees onto the underside of the piston crown, cooling it. One of my vw friends reportedly used thread in MIG welding tips, wo/check valves, I'm not sure how well that worked.

The below video link shows a guy testing squirters during a 6cyl ac Porsche engine rebuild, which came stock with them I understand now :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97-0XwvGvkI

Going deeper down the rabbit hole:
It looks like the LS V8 guys have jumped on this mod, not surprising with add-on supercharger and twin turbo LS engines making 100hp per hole these days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Cljwe1dkdc
Howdy Tom,

Thanks for the well wishes and THANKS for posting those videos.

Sergey wouldn't allow me to take photos of what he was working on but it consisted up a couple of tubes that had oil flowing through them that then sprayed onto the underside of the pistons. I had been aware of this being used on aircraft engines, large diesel engines, and some of the old flat track Harley's, and now on the newest rendition of the Harley engine. If this could be integrated into a Ural engine it would go a LONG way toward making OIL cooling much more efficient on the Ural, this will of course add HEAT to the oil making the use of an external oil cooler something to seriously consider, flow to the cooler should be restricted by a thermostat to prevent the oil from being to cold during cold weather or low speed operation.

Dave
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Driver of the "Predator" a highly modified 2005 Gear-Up.

The "Canyon Acrobat" a 2008 Gear-Up, and the "Kraken" a 2013/14 Gear-Up, have been sold and no longer in my stable.

My Photo galleries, http://mr-cob.smugmug.com/

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Re: Deep Sump Question

Post by Wildhorse Cafe » Mon May 10, 2021 2:29 pm

A deep sump may not be ideal for off roading but the basic physics can't be denied. There is at least 2 to 3 times the surface area on a deep sump, an extra quart of oil reduces the duty time of the oil by a third. Those attributes add up to peace of mind and make it worth it for me.
2011 Patrol, The Higgs Bison Super Collider, formally known as, the Orange and Silver Pumpkin Coach.

2013 Black Retro, Chernaya Krasota, formally known as, my name is nobody.

When you set out on your journey to Ithaca
pray the road is long , full of adventure, full of knowledge
not expecting that Ithaca will offer you riches
Ithaca has given you the beautiful voyage

C.P. Cavafy

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