Front and sidecar brake linked?

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Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by Rakthi » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:53 am

Uli Jacken, a German Ural dealer links the front and sidecar brakes. (https://www.uli-jacken.de/home.html#)

Just wondering what the reason for this is and if it actually has some advantage or not.

Picture from the website. He does this modification on all Urals he sells and probably also on the custom rigs
Screen Shot 2020-08-01 at 11.44.44.jpg
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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by Lokiboy » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:08 am

In theory, I guess it would help you brake in a straighter line - if you’re only using the front and not the peddle (pusher) brake. But since the Sidecar is so light weight and it’s breaking assistance is minimal at best, I’m not sure it would be that effective. With-that-said, it can’t hurt (except in your wallet)
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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by Claus » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:25 am

The reason is to brake in a straighter line like Lokiboy wrote. The Ural rig brakes quite well with it´s disc rotor brake on the front wheel, but if you panic and hit the front brake, the wheel locks up and the side car pushes you directly into the oncoming traffic. To prevent that, this type of brake linkage is quite good. if you hit the front brake, the side car brake will work together with it and beeing pushed to the left hand side is not very likely.

If I build a rig, I always take care to link either the front or the rear wheel to the side car wheel. Or both. On my Suzuki rig the foot brake engages the rear wheel caliper, one 4 piston caliper on the front wheel and one 2 piston caliper on the hack. The front wheel engages the second 4 piston caliper on the front wheel and the second 2 piston caliper on the hack. This means an absolute straight line when braking in panic. In worst case with three blocked wheels. A great advantage over a front wheel with two original calipers only, engaged with the front brake master.
Quite a good number of customers´rigs end up in my shop because of blocking the front wheel and sliding into the bushes during the first couple of weeks of ownership.

Uli Jacken is one of the very few companies I trust, talking about building rigs. This guy is honest and really willing to help, if one has got questions. His knows what he´s talking about. Look onto his web site. He builds rigs from everything with two wheels, not only selling Urals.
owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, 95 Suzuki DR 650 RSE, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by stagewex » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:00 am

Both of my Scooters, Honda Big Ruckus (sold a couple weeks ago) & Vespa have linked-brake systems. Both are disc in the front and drum in the back.
The left control which to us is normally the hand clutch is the "Linked Control". The right is the front only as tradition.

I still use both in conjunction as I would do with separate controls as sometimes you might want to have a bit more stopping power from your front disc brake without the front-end diving. It's also the way I learned how to ride and brake a motorcycle so a habit that will probably never change, relying on only the Linked control. So it's nothing new and I have never had any problems with it.

A buddy has a Moto-Guzzi from the 70's or 80's that also has linked braking. Came standard on that bike but not sure if they still do? He does have some tinkering to do synchronizing them when he services the brakes (installing new pads) but for the most part they work well.

I do not speak or read German but I'm assuming this fellow is linking new rigs with disc's all around?
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Current Herd all running amok:
2019 Honda CRF450L (Elec Start)
2008 Vespa 150S (Elec & Kick Start)
2007 Ural Patrol (2WD, Elec & Kick Start)
2006 Honda "Big Ruckus" PS250 (Elec Start)
1991 Honda XR250L (Kick Start Only) *NOT running amok, out for Bottom & Top-End Rebuild.
1986 Yamaha BW200ES (Elec & Kick Start)

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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by Claus » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:25 am

stagewex wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:00 am
I do not speak or read German but I'm assuming this fellow is linking new rigs with disc's all around?
You´re right. There is no reasonable way to link the drum brake on the hack to the disc brake on the front wheel on older Urals.
Once you convert it to disc brake (like I do 3 or 4 times a year), you would link it to the front brake. (some link it to the rear drum brake with an additional foot brake master on the hack´s frame, but I don´t like that version.

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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by Speedbump » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:39 am

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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by Claus » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:55 pm

Speedbump wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:39 am
Try this;
https://sovietsteeds.com/forums/viewtop ... ve#p563739
This is a good point when linking the original side car brake to the front brake, and I didn´t think about it, because I most of times build my own side car brake with a smaller scooter disc rotor. This prevents from overbraking the side car wheel.

Hal wrote:
I put about 170kms on this system in the last two days. The Wildwood valve worked and the momentary right hand pull under emergency braking is almost unnoticeable under 50mph. There is no felt pull under gentle braking at up to 60 +mph. Rear brake was almost unnecessary but, if used, the bike stopped straight and true at all speeds.
Worth thinking about.
owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, 95 Suzuki DR 650 RSE, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by Rakthi » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:59 pm

Some interesting insights!

Had been thinking about emergency braking, on regular motorbikes I hardly ever used the rear break.

Will have to retrain myself to use the foot brake for panic braking.
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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by Claus » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:07 pm

I do use both brakes all the time. If the foot brake was needless, why would it be on the motorcycle? It gives you the 10 or 15% more brake power in emergency.
And if you use it all the time, you´re familiar with it and automatically use it right when necessary. Personal opinion.
owned bikes: 93 Ural rig domestic model, 95 Suzuki DR 650 RSE, BMW R100GS, Suzuki GSX1100G rig, BMW R100R rig with Ural sidecar, Ural rig with BMW drivetrain under construction,

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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by stagewex » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:48 pm

Claus wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:07 pm
I do use both brakes all the time. If the foot brake was needless, why would it be on the motorcycle? It gives you the 10 or 15% more brake power in emergency.
And if you use it all the time, you´re familiar with it and automatically use it right when necessary. Personal opinion.

My same opinion and goes way beyond piloting a Ural or any sidecar rig.
Common sense on every and all 2-wheelers disc, drum or any combination of the 2 (or 3).
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Current Herd all running amok:
2019 Honda CRF450L (Elec Start)
2008 Vespa 150S (Elec & Kick Start)
2007 Ural Patrol (2WD, Elec & Kick Start)
2006 Honda "Big Ruckus" PS250 (Elec Start)
1991 Honda XR250L (Kick Start Only) *NOT running amok, out for Bottom & Top-End Rebuild.
1986 Yamaha BW200ES (Elec & Kick Start)

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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by chaos2 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:11 pm

Claus wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:07 pm
If the foot brake was needless, why would it be on the motorcycle?
Maybe it's for old school riders who swore using the front brake would "throw you over the handlebars" :lol: :lol:
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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by Snakeoil » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:11 pm

With older mechanical brakes from the rigid frame days the diameter of the drums were small for the weight of the bikes. A hand on a lever cannot apply the power that a foot on a pedal can. So, the rear brake was generally the more effective of the two. I would think the favoring might be related to that.

Also consider that most roads were dirt at on time and heavy use of the front brake on dirt or gravel can cause the front end to w@$# out.
I also agree with the point about front brakes on bicycles having an influence too. It did on me when I started riding.
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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by stagewex » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:38 pm

chaos2 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:11 pm
Claus wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:07 pm
If the foot brake was needless, why would it be on the motorcycle?
Maybe it's for old school riders who swore using the front brake would "throw you over the handlebars" :lol: :lol:
HaHa. I have a friend who religiously believes that. I asked him where he heard it? He said it happened to him, thrown over the bars.
Stagewex

Current Herd all running amok:
2019 Honda CRF450L (Elec Start)
2008 Vespa 150S (Elec & Kick Start)
2007 Ural Patrol (2WD, Elec & Kick Start)
2006 Honda "Big Ruckus" PS250 (Elec Start)
1991 Honda XR250L (Kick Start Only) *NOT running amok, out for Bottom & Top-End Rebuild.
1986 Yamaha BW200ES (Elec & Kick Start)

List what you "have", keep the others in your precious memory bank.

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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by Rakthi » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:03 am

Claus wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:07 pm
I do use both brakes all the time. If the foot brake was needless, why would it be on the motorcycle? It gives you the 10 or 15% more brake power in emergency.
And if you use it all the time, you´re familiar with it and automatically use it right when necessary. Personal opinion.
Ouch, did not explain this braking thing well ...

When practicing emergency stops the use of the rear brake in combination with the front one is executed flawlessly, but in a real-life unexpected situation (lucky only happened 2 times) the neanderthal brain overrides the logic one, and I found I tend to grab the front brake first.

From what I understand, on an Ural it will be more effective to go more for the rear/sidecar brake to prevent the contraption from swinging in the left lane/ditch.

Will have to re-wire my "instinctive" reactions.
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Re: Front and sidecar brake linked?

Post by windmill » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:24 am

There's a modest pull to the right when using the rear, and a modest pull to the left when using the front, but neither is enough to overpower ones directional steering control.

I do find the braking characteristics useful for easing steering effort. I've never had them do anything detrimental to maintaining control.

The sidecar brake can pull the rig sharply to the right if its not adjusted correctly.
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