Where did the Ural design come from ?

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RC20
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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by RC20 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:40 pm

That still does not answer the engine question.

Is it really a K-71 or a K-75 design and build post WWII?
100k estimated cycle driving:

Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

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tgtrotter
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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by tgtrotter » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:54 pm

Verrry Vinterestink !!

Lots of read to digest.
Carl Benz designed the Boxer
BMW developed it and later either traded, abandoned, or surrendered either models or plans to Soviets for reverse engineering. At the same time Soviets acquired old milling machinery or copied and used them on their production.
I'm a little fuzzy on who thought of, whose design and when 2WD came into play. All agree no 2WD before WWII but some say during while others say not til early 1951/52.?
Today's Ural is based on a M72. Although only 2 similar parts, today's Ural is an improvement of just basic manufacturing materials and techniques.

So next question is. How does Dneper and Jiang fit in ?
Dneper is India ?
Jiang is China ?
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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by eastbloc » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:18 pm

If only one could Google these things :)
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tgtrotter
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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by tgtrotter » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:26 pm

eastbloc wrote:If only one could Google these things :)
Nice try eastbloc,
I doubly appreciate your replies and others. Im not here to waste yours or my time. I'd rather hear and gather info from those on the ground.

I Google a lot and have learned a lot. I even googled this subject before posting. Google is not as definitive as you'd think. Especially Google Maps....pet peevee.

Like Will Rogers, I like to read. Forums are another avenue in the library of e-info. Better than Google IMHO.

After re-reading your above quote, maybe I misinterpret your post as your frustration that Google would not have a definitive answer either. I took it as you insinuating I'm too lazy too look. My bad. IDK.

Either way, again thank you and others for replies.

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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by eastbloc » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:27 pm

A question like "what country are Dneprs from" doesn't require an answer from a primary source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepr_(motorcycle)

Just sayin'.
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tgtrotter
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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by tgtrotter » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:29 am

eastbloc wrote:A question like "what country are Dneprs from" doesn't require an answer from a primary source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepr_(motorcycle)

Just sayin'.
Sorry. I had been told differently, til now.

:oops: And shame on me for not checking or knowing.

But C'mon Man, I gots the Jiang right ! :clap:

Just been curious as to if and how Ural, Dneper and Jiang evolve from BMW ?
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2004 FLTRI :machinegun:
1992 Trek 830 :P

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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by GregAus » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:10 am

RC20 wrote:That still does not answer the engine question.

Is it really a K-71 or a K-75 design and build post WWII?
There is no such thing as a K-71 engine, and the K75 engine is an inline three cylinder water-cooled engine. All Ural engines are derived from the IMZ M-52 engine (an OHV 500 in a plunger frame, first mass produced in 1957 with valve gear derived from the BMW R51/3). The M-52 itself derived from the M-72 and M-72M, which were derived from the BMW R71. Ural as a brandname replaced Irbit MZ with the M-62 introduced in 1961.
tgtrotter wrote:Verrry Vinterestink !!

Lots of read to digest.
Carl Benz designed the Boxer
BMW developed it and later either traded, abandoned, or surrendered either models or plans to Soviets for reverse engineering. At the same time Soviets acquired old milling machinery or copied and used them on their production.
Fée in England developed the first motorcycle with a boxer engine in 1904 (later called the Fairy and Made by Light Motors). In 1907 Light Motors went out of business and Douglas acquired the manufacturing rights. In 1921, BMW began manufacture of its M2B15 flat-twin engine (essentially a copy of the Douglas engine). It was used in the Victoria, and the Helios manufactured by Bayerische Flugzeugwerke. BMW merged with Bayerische Flugzeugwerke in 1922, inheriting from them the Helios motorcycle. Popp and Friz redesigned the Helios as the BMW R32 and began production in 1923, becoming the first motorcycle to be badged as a BMW.
tgtrotter wrote:I'm a little fuzzy on who thought of, whose design and when 2WD came into play. All agree no 2WD before WWII but some say during while others say not til early 1951/52.?
Sidecar drive has been around since 1928 when it was independently developed by English designer Baugham and Soviet designer Mozharov. In 1964, KMZ introduced a military model, the MV-750 with a differential two-wheel drive to the sidecar wheel. The Soviets experimented with sidecar drive during the war, but did not think the added complication was worthwhile.
tgtrotter wrote:Today's Ural is based on a M72. Although only 2 similar parts, today's Ural is an improvement of just basic manufacturing materials and techniques.
It's wrong to say that "Today's Ural is based on a M72." It has evolved from the M-72 with influence from the R51/3 for the valves and the R50 for the frame.
tgtrotter wrote:So next question is. How does Dneper and Jiang fit in ?
Dneper is India ?
Jiang is China ?
:cheers:
In 1949 Gorkiy Mototsikletny Zavod was closed and transferred to KMZ to manufacture the M-72 in lieu of the Kievlyahin 100. Production of the M-72 commenced in 1952. In 1967 KMZ made it's first production OHV engine and christened the bike the Dnepr. You got Dnepr and Royal Enfield confused.

In 1956, IMZ ceased production of the M-72 in favour of the M-72M and the production line was transferred to the PRC. IMZ continued supplying parts up to 1960 when wholly indigenous production commenced.

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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by RC20 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:41 pm

There is no such thing as a K-71 engine, and the K75 engine is an inline three cylinder water-cooled engine.
My Mistake, how about R-71 and R75? Typo. I am well aware of the K75 and K1000 ala the brick.

My point is that I don't believe the current engine is the original WWII engine. I believe as seems to be stated that its a knock off of the various BMW offerings and more closely related to the R-75 and ultimately engines up as the R80GS or R80ST.

Current Ural has camshaft on top?
100k estimated cycle driving:

Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Switchgear/ Generators/Fire Pumps/Computer Controlled Building Systems

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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by GregAus » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:27 pm

RC20 wrote:
There is no such thing as a K-71 engine, and the K75 engine is an inline three cylinder water-cooled engine.
My Mistake, how about R-71 and R75? Typo. I am well aware of the K75 and K1000 ala the brick.

My point is that I don't believe the current engine is the original WWII engine. I believe as seems to be stated that its a knock off of the various BMW offerings and more closely related to the R-75 and ultimately engines up as the R80GS or R80ST.

Current Ural has camshaft on top?
R-71 is also a typo, BMW didn't use dashes, it's a Soviet thing. Of course the current engine is not the same as the original pre-war (19380 R71 engine, but it is derived from it. Describing anything as a "knock-off of BMW is ludicrous. BMW is the great imitator and has rarely had an original idea in its entire history. And if you think that the 247 engine is in any way related to the WWII R75 then you are delusional.

I've already told you where the OHV design was derived from - the R51/3 (the first single cam post-war BMW). Derived doesn't mean copied or "knocked-off" more at inspired. The current Ural 750 OHV has its design derived from the aborted 1980s M-73, slightly inspired by the 247 engine but more closely related to to the 8.103 engine.

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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by RC20 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:19 pm

Kind of got a Burr up your butt about dashes and such don't you?

This is supposed to be an exchange of information, not seeing who can cross their eyes and dot their Ts.

The last part is sinking in so thank you for that (see its not so hard) - sometimes it takes a bit of discussion to get the brain wrapped around something. The Ural story is about as convoluted as they come (my opinion of course)

Seeing as how the Russians did have access to machines as well as factory after WWII, I think its purely speculative to say how they got the OHV design. Just that they did. Everyone copies from someone else and seldom do you see a piece of work magically appear as all original. Some, parts and sometimes all the parts are derived from someone else prior work and sometimes several people works go into a new combination. No reason they would not copy a design that worked.

Everyone copies from everyone else, improves it or makes it worse etc.


The following is attributed to Ian Fallooon, " BMW Boxer Twins Bible, circa 2017"
In 1938,[10] R71 Air cooled, 746cc, Boxer, side valve was introduced with a license going to Russia where they were built in Russia and Ukraine as the M72 and later in China as the Chang Jiang.
Following does not have attribution:
The end of World War II found BMW in ruins. Its plant outside of Munich was destroyed by Allied bombing. The Eisenach facility, while badly damaged, was not totally destroyed, and tooling and machinery had been stored safely nearby. Contrary to popular accounts, the facility was not dismantled by the Soviets as reparations and sent to the Soviet Union to be reassembled in Irbit to make IMZ-Ural motorcycles; the IMZ plant was supplied to the Soviets by BMW under license before the German invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941
And lets not forget the KS 750 (no dash) and how many of those were captured and examined?
100k estimated cycle driving:

Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by GregAus » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:24 pm

I suspect you're monolingual and only know the 26 letters of the modern English language and the few symbols regularly used in modern English. That won't help you in doing research in German or Russian. Different alphabets and different symbols, and the dash becomes very important when doing Яндекс (Yandex) searches. Even in Google adding and subtracting dashes affects search results.

You continually use Russian instead of Soviet, showing a cultural bias that affects your thinking. The Soviet Union had about 180 nationalities, Russians being the majority, but rarely being in charge.

The Soviets had a R75 in early 1941 before the commencement of the Great Patriotic War, they did not, however have a supply of high octane fuel for road vehicles. Thus, when they developed the TMZ-53, it was developed as a 1,000 cc SV based on the M-72. High octane fuel was a significant limiter to the Soviets developing OHV (relatively high compression) engines. That plus an undeveloped road system and quite low speed limits.

They did what was needed in their unique circumstances. Didn't stop them putting the first satellite, then dog, then man, then woman into space.

While MMZ arrived in Irbit in November 1941, it did not become IMZ until 1945. The BMW plant in Munich ceased making motorcycles in 1941 when the R71 ceased. All BMW motorcycles after 1941 were made in Eisenach. Most comments about IMZ in English are made by people who only speak English and repeat myths from other English only speakers.

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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by RC20 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:59 pm

I suspect you're monolingual and only know the 26 letters of the modern English language and the few symbols regularly used in modern English. That won't help you in doing research in German or Russian.
True. Also a great deal of information is cross translated. Some like official Russian documents have to be suspect, people got shot for just about anything back in those days.

You continually use Russian instead of Soviet, showing a cultural bias that affects your thinking. The Soviet Union had about 180 nationalities, Russians being the majority, but rarely being in charge.
The US also had a number of "nationalities" ala the Native American Tribes. Said tribes did not voluntarily incorporated into the United States. Its refer4ed to as the United States, not the Allied Tribes of North America. So yes, Russia is what counted. Everyone else went along or got shot (often went along after a great many were shot)
The Soviets had a R75 in early 1941 before the commencement of the Great Patriotic War, they did not, however have a supply of high octane fuel for road vehicles. Thus, when they developed the TMZ-53, it was developed as a 1,000 cc SV based on the M-72. High octane fuel was a significant limiter to the Soviets developing OHV (relatively high compression) engines. That plus an undeveloped road system and quite low speed limits.
I don't know that anyone had high octane gas in those days. What kind of octane do you need for a flathead? And keep in mind, this is the same country that managed to supply millions of gallons of diesel for the tank in WWIII. Frankly that is more stunning than first in space. Diesel injection needs good cetane and quality fuel or it destroy the injector pump promptly.
They did what was needed in their unique circumstances. Didn't stop them putting the first satellite, then dog, then man, then woman into space.
I am not sure that the first woman in space was any harder than the first man? Nice PR move. How many women served on the Supreme Soviet?
While MMZ arrived in Irbit in November 1941, it did not become IMZ until 1945. The BMW plant in Munich ceased making motorcycles in 1941 when the R71 ceased. All BMW motorcycles after 1941 were made in Eisenach. Most comments about IMZ in English are made by people who only speak English and repeat myths from other English only speakers.
The interesting part is post WWII and how the engine evolved or was derived and from what.
100k estimated cycle driving:

Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Switchgear/ Generators/Fire Pumps/Computer Controlled Building Systems

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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by CarlS » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:17 pm

GregAus wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:24 pm

You continually use Russian instead of Soviet, showing a cultural bias that affects your thinking. The Soviet Union had about 180 nationalities, Russians being the majority, but rarely being in charge.
I din't think this shows a bias. To many of us in North America Soviet = Russian and the terms are synonymous. I know there is a legitimate technical difference; but for everyday conversation, it doesn't matter.
They did what was needed in their unique circumstances. Didn't stop them putting the first satellite, then dog, then man, then woman into space.
What has that got to do with this conversation? Who put the first - and only - astronauts on the moon? Who has put exploration devices on Mars? The answers have nothing to do with this conversation.
While MMZ arrived in Irbit in November 1941, it did not become IMZ until 1945. The BMW plant in Munich ceased making motorcycles in 1941 when the R71 ceased. All BMW motorcycles after 1941 were made in Eisenach. Most comments about IMZ in English are made by people who only speak English and repeat myths from other English only speakers.
Sorry, I don't speak Russian. My native language is American English. Thus I read, write and speak in English. That does not make me better or worse than you or anyone else. For the record I do speak and read German and speak and read a little Spanish. I have not practiced my German skills in a long time.

I do have a question for you. I have only been a member of the fine forum for a short time. You come across to me as very anti-American (US). Why is that? I have served in many countries across the globe. While I may not like some of the governments and some of the laws of these countries, I found that most of the citizens are no different than I. For the most part, we all have the same needs, wants and desires. I love motorcycles and love to ride. I don 't care what nationality, skin color, or religion you are; if you like motorcycles and like to ride, we have a whole lot in common. We are part of a brotherhood and sisterhood that transcends nationality, race or religion. Just my opinion.
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Current rides: 2012 Triumph Tiger 800XC, 2003 Triumph Bonneville T100, 1968 Triumph Trophy TR6R

Past Rides: Too many to list; but of interest here - 2003 Triumph Bonneville T100 w/Velorex sidecar, 2013 HD Sportster w/Texas sidecar, 1974 Yamaha TX650, 1966 Triumph Trophy TR6R

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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by tgtrotter » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:15 am

The biggest reason I asked the question " where did the Ural design come from" is so in a UDF sitch I can relay accurate info.

And for my own head. Been trying to sort this all out ....I'm a little slow

. But I do have humble manners and think everyone here has replied in a mature/ adult fashion. Nothing better than a good debate.

Heated ones better. If ya know what I mean.
Thank you Men.
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Re: Where did the Ural design come from ?

Post by GregAus » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:22 am

CarlS wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:17 pm
I do have a question for you. I have only been a member of the fine forum for a short time. You come across to me as very anti-American (US). Why is that? I have served in many countries across the globe. While I may not like some of the governments and some of the laws of these countries, I found that most of the citizens are no different than I. For the most part, we all have the same needs, wants and desires. I love motorcycles and love to ride. I don 't care what nationality, skin color, or religion you are; if you like motorcycles and like to ride, we have a whole lot in common. We are part of a brotherhood and sisterhood that transcends nationality, race or religion. Just my opinion.
I have had the most unfortunate occasions to serve with US special forces in Australia. A more racist, sexist and criminal group of individuals would be hard to find. The extensive use of SOFA to avoid criminality is exceptional. Unlike the US, Australia has had mixed gender units for many decades. Soldiers, sailors and airmen are described by their uniform, not their genitalia! IN WWII the common refrain was that "the only problem with the Yanks is that they're overpaid, oversexed and over here!" Nothing has changed. I have had to deal with with US personnel attempting to sexually assault/rape service personnel and suddenly being shipped back to the US to escape charges.

I advised all my female personnel to crack the nuts of anyone assaulting them and scream for the Police. One of your SEALS lost his ability to reproduce thanks to one of my soldiers and was eventually prosecuted by your military and not hidden away due to our Police demanding proof that he was covered by SOFA.

You would be quite surprised how despised your military is held by allies due to the behaviour of many of your units.

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