Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

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Lofty
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Re: Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

Post by Lofty » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:15 pm

The DOD has certainly choked up on the reins here.

When I was in uniform, circa Gulf War 1.0, the airmen who rode just had to comply with the host country or host state's law(s) for riders. Whilst I was in the U.K., that meant a full face helmet meeting ECE standards (their version of our DOT, but stronger). When stateside, 'twas usually some form of helmet, even if just a pudding bowl.

As for MSF training, pre-purchase counseling, gaily colored vests, etc? It wasn't ever part of the discussion. We were treated as adults.
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Re: Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

Post by WEGUNTER » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:24 pm

Well those days are long gone and there is a reason for it. The number of young troops coming back from combat, buying a super charged rice rocket and then killing or injuring themselves is fairly significant. Another added inducement is that safety has become a box check on officer's performance reviews. loose a number of soldiers to accidents and you could find yourself passed over for promotion.

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Re: Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

Post by Pterodactyl » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:24 pm

In the first decade of the Afghan/Iraq wars there were more losses in the Marine Corps due to motorcycle accidents than to combat. The MSF advanced rider’s course was developed in response to a request by the Marine Corps because of their motorcycle related losses.
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Re: Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

Post by Lofty » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:46 pm

The matter of young men using deployment pay to purchase a fast motorcycle, or car, is not a recent phenomenon. I watched my friends/fellow airmen do it, back in the day.

The rare but recurring loss of young mil personnel through their own misadventures is nothing new, either. With that in mind, it'd be interesting to really unpack why the DOD's nannyish regulations regarding on-base riding didn't take bloom until the second round of the Gulf Wars; i.e., Afghan/Iraq as correctly mentioned above. If it's so important, where were they during Kuwait/Iraq? Or Grenada? Vietnam?

Is the matter of flow charts and special ID cards, and tick boxes on the evaluations of commissioned personnel, just symptoms, with the ever-broadening scope of a risk-averse culture being the real cause?

I've enough time and experience to see this through eyes that didn't serve in a #SafeSpace, or critically, expect it. Good luck to the troops that can look squarely at all of those hoops, and find the wherewithal to jump through them.

-----------

Lest anyone misunderstand, I mean to take nothing away from the loss of a young man's life, no matter that it may have occurred through improper choices. Consider, though, the dichotomy of one hand holding a service rifle, and the other hand being firmly held by Mommy. Should this tension exist to the extent that it presently does? That's the question that I believe is posed by the first post in this thread, whether the OP intended to convey it or not.
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Re: Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

Post by Niteblues » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:57 pm

Lofty wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:46 pm
...
The rare but recurring loss of young mil personnel through their own misadventures is nothing new, either.
...
T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) died after WWI on his Brough Superior SS100.
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Re: Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

Post by Pterodactyl » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:09 pm

I was a rifle company commander in 1979-80. I was required to personally talk to every soldier in my company that had a motorcycle. It was a broad admonition about the dangers of motorcycling and the requirement to wear a helmet. I rode a motorcycle on post then and for the next 27 years I was in. I was always required to wear a helmet, long pants/sleeves and footgear. Overtime the requirement to wear a high viz vest or similar jacket came around as did the requirement have a MSF training card. I never found the requirements to be particularly onerous.

As mentioned, it is plausible that the service could take action if the member was injured and not in compliance with the regulations. This can happen anytime a member is injured on or off duty/post and it is the result of illegal or reckless behavior. An investigation, called a line of duty investigation, is conducted. In all my time in the Army I only saw action taken when the injury was the result of serious illegal behavior; for example being shot by the police while committing an armed robbery. In that case pay and allowances are suspended, medical costs are not paid and the service member accumulates bad time (the time does not count for time in service for pay, promotion or service obligation). Always tough when there is a wife and children involved
Last edited by Pterodactyl on Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

Post by Lofty » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:00 pm

A brief, and true, story.

During my time on active duty, direct deposit of biweekly pay was [still] optional. All personnel retained the ability to have a paper check mailed to them. Eventually, squadron commanders were advised to give the hard sell for direct deposit to all airmen under their command. It was more costly to mail hard copy checks, and the DOD was trying to reduce the volume of such payments, in advance of the phase-out being compulsory. Well in advance, as it came to pass.

Soon enough, the squadron NCOICs were charged with providing mandatory counseling sessions, fortnightly, to all enlisted personnel who wanted to continue receiving paper checks. I signed up for DD as soon as the option was made available to me, but several of my friends liked their checks and so had to attend these recurring meetings. It was, I was told, infantilizing for all involved. Airmen could not be forced to sign up for electronic payroll deposits, nor could they skip out on meeting with the NCOIC, again and again and again, without real consequences. Their only relief/release was deployment; all of this occurring 'roundabout when Saddam decided to look southeast. (My first-person experience with that particular matter is a story for another time. :wink: )

I eventually lost interest in following the matter, but I do recall some holdouts who, well, held out for more than a few months. That's the spirit!

Anyway, per the foregoing, there was a real dissonance for all and sundry to witness. There's a mild parallel with my prior comment alluding to one hand holding an instrument of death whilst the other was firmly in the grasp of Mother Knows Best. If that is really the best recipe for readiness, I remain to be convinced.

This isn't to say that commanders, et alia shouldn't completely disregard or hold accountable the personal choices of their subordinates (that's not really possible, nor should it be). It's simply a matter of degrees, of extent, that is being discussed here. They're not the freshman class at Woke University.
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Re: Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

Post by BlueRockCrawler » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:15 pm

Top brass found through research and study that more of your sons die on a bike then being shot and come up with some pretty intelligent strategies to mitigate this, much like they would do with anything else that kills young men and women in uniform. They also found that people with extremity injuries bleed out, die, and a simple tourniquet can save those lives. Is it a nanny state now that every serviceman is trained and carries a tourniquet to deploy rapidly in the case of extremity injury?
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Re: Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

Post by rougaroo » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:52 pm

It may seem cynical to take the human factor out, but there's also a component of asset management at work here. Just as the military has always taught everyone to secure and guard government property, in these days of both a high-tech military and an all-volunteer force, a service member represents a huge investment on the government's part. They are even spoken of as "assets". As government assets, they require risk management.

Changing topic slightly - I heard a flag officer quote this number in a speech, and checked it out to confirm: 80% of US high school graduates are currently unfit to join the military. Overweight, prior drug or alcohol problems, bad grades, etc. And currently fewer than 1% of the population has served in the military.

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Re: Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

Post by Yoggie » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:36 am

In reply to rougaroo: I cannot find the numbers right now, but of those that do serve, a huge percentage have parents (like myself) and often grand parents that served. Making the number of people with direct family ties to the military even smaller than the 1% would imply.

As others have already pointed out, there is the human factor of loosing people and the cost associated with getting a trained asset killed. Both impact how leadership makes decisions on how to allocate money and time resources. In the communications/IT world, it can take 18-24 months to get someone to the point where they are able to perform complex tasks without mentorship and the military cannot recuperate the investment if all of our troops die young.

So for requirements you have to do a 2 day initial MSR training course and a 1 and a half day advanced course in the first year. Beyond that, you usually have a yearly training requirement of 1-2 hours, and you have some admin work whenever you move, call it max 2 hours. You also have to accomplish a 1 day training course every 5 years. In the spring and in the fall my base does a group ride that checks the box for the every 5 year requirement. Sorry boss, but the Air Force requires that I go on an all day motorcycle ride this Friday! :) Other than the initial two, once in a life time courses, everything else has been on the clock, and I am sure everyone hates when they are getting paid to either talk about or ride motorcycles! Sounds like an extremely good deal to me :)

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Re: Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

Post by Paint shaker » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:40 pm

The wife and I went to NAS Pensacola to visit the Air Museum. She was in the side car wearing a dress and sandals. We got denied entry as she had to wear long pants, long sleeve shirt and closed toe shoes. Went to the Wally World just up the road and purchased the required items. Passed through check point. When done, exchanged the items at Wally world for beach gear and went to the Floribama!! :D
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Re: Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

Post by David Z » Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:26 pm

rougaroo wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:24 pm
Took this while visiting my son. Really makes you want to get out there and ride, doesn't it? And unlike Tom Cruise in Topgun, they insist on ATGATT, even if it's 95F outside.

image000000.jpg

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Guess they figure I'd never crash in uniform
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Re: Navy Motorcycle Riding Requirements

Post by disposable » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:48 pm

WEGUNTER wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:24 pm
safety has become a box check on officer's performance reviews. loose a number of soldiers to accidents and you could find yourself passed over for promotion.
This is the real reason for all of the "safety" requirements. They can show that they did "something" to try and prevent it.
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