Why a Ural Costs 15K +

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RC20
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Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by RC20 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:00 pm

I have seen the comments on costs, to high for what it is etc. Also it came up why they can't do a syncromesh transmission.

Many are aware of all or parts of this but I think its worth stating it. And keep in mind that those of us who have the newer machines owe a debt of gratitude to those who have the older ones that have allowed Ural to keep in production to get us where we are now. Its the only machine that meets the needs of those like myself who have physical issues that don't allow a 2 wheel cycle anymore, let alone the gear it can carry which opens back up my 2 and 3 days camping trips I loved so much.

Emissions: I work with and worked on engines a lot over the last 35 years and I have seen whole series (Detroit Diesel which were 2 cycles) go out of production as at the time they could not meet the emissions. Tough slog as there was only Detroit that did that type of engine (and a good one it was). And they made them in massive quantities. Actually ran cleaner than anyone else if set right on the injectors (which you could do with a $25 timing pick).
My Yamaha snowblower was discontinued because it had a one off engine and they could not justify the cost to certify it. Yahmaha is back with a new engine now but its not the same engine (the original was like a John Deer 2 cylinder that just grunted harder as it pulled down rpm. ) - best snow blowing engine ever as it does not bog down or stall. Its a 7 hp that acts like a 10hp.
It costs a lot to certify and maintain. Ural won't have its own labs so they will have to source it out. As its sold in at least 3 markets (more?) you have to certify in each one as they are close to but not the same.
How they got Keihin on board I have not a clue, probably as a result of being able to adapt existing FI for other applications . From the problem with Electro Jet and the need for the off road mapping, you can clearly see the issues of small mfg production and support. Clearly Ural realized the issued and worked to do something about it. Having Keihin is huge, you will alwyas have support. The time and effort to change it from what Ural thought was a solution is costly.

Small Quantity Producible: Building small numbers of anything costs a lot, frankly its amazing that Ural can build a certified engine in the quantities they do and still be in the realm of sanity cost wise (15-18k for a side car is not out of reason as far as I am concerned, it may not be the price everyone wants but price a 750CC plus driver and a decent aftermarket side car and see what that cost)
That goes for the tranny and rear drive as well. The 3 core components have to be well built to be viable (and Ural has had its issues its worked on and seems to have overcome). Quality in low quantities is not cheap and its unique, its not like BMW is selling them the drive train based on larger numbers they build. Dodge can offer the (5.7?) they do because Cummins supplies it and they sell 10s of thousand outside the Dodge application.

Support: When I had the (I believe) the O sensor problem Ural had it in stock. The Dealer tore a gasket when they checked the valve lash, they had that in stock (and its a new gasket). Someone is thinking right. I remember the days of initial bucket and shim adjustments that all mfgs were out of the shims you needed and cycles were sitting 3-6 months before they got them. I don't know totally how well Ural has done in parts but it looks like they had a full handled on things and have the parts. That is not cheap. And those parts for the previous years models.
You can add in the headquarters, quality and paid staff, buildings costs, insurance, all that stuff. None of it is cheap. Dealing through Russia has got to be a major cost and challenge. Those same supports have to be there in each market.

And you still need to be able to make a living as well as have the money to invest in the Ural on a continuous basis. It may be a passion, but you still have to eat and live and get some time off or you go under.

Wiki lists their final profits at $153,000 for 2017. That is not much.

Would I love to have only paid 10k for my setup? Hell yes. Would I want to sacrifice quality and the progress made to do so. Hell no.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

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1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

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Mr Wazzock
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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by Mr Wazzock » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:34 pm

Just a note, synchromesh is for car transmissions (manual) not motorcycle transmissions. Motorcycle transmissions are constant mesh, I.e. all the gears are in mesh all the time. Ratios are selected by sliding dogs. This is characteristic of sequential gear selection. Unlike a synchromesh car transmission where you can get to any gear directly from neutral.
:D

Prices are going up all the time. I happened to note recently how a "cheap" new economy type car over here is about 30k. And you should see the car forums about problems!
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sKiZo
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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by sKiZo » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:00 pm

A new Ford Ranger will set you back around $30k for a decent package. A decent washer and dryer maybe $3k. Furnace
around $5k. Rebuilt auto engine about the same. Only thing cheap nowadays is electronics, and most of that is built to be obsolete in a couple years, and that's about how long it's built to last for. With IMZ, good thing to remember is much of the machine is hand built, and that doesn't come cheap.

Wouldn't mind seeing Ural come up with ABS though ... seems a good bit of OMG! moments are due to improper setup and application of brakes. Wouldn't mind having an extra brain taking care of the details there for me.
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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by Mr Wazzock » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:09 pm

ABS on 2 wheel motorcycles is so they don't fall over if they skid while braking. ABS on a car is so it can steer around an obstacle (how many drivers know that?) while braking without skidding into said obstacle. ABS on a sidecar outfit - errm - it won't fall over if it skids - but could you steer it around the obstacle as well?
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(aka Oranzhevaya Opasnost, "The Orange Peril")

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sKiZo
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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by sKiZo » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:19 pm

Modern ABS is more about proportional application of braking to each wheel, constantly adjusted when in use for whatever force is needed to keep the vehicle going in whatever direction the driver intended. A bike complicates things some as the brain also has to deal with keeping the bike vertical, which shouldn't be as much of a problem with a Ural? Different geometry required to pull it off on a three wheeler, but principle is the same.

That said, if you intended to drive into that tree, that's all on you ... can't blame it on ABS, eh ... <G>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Evil Kneivel? He got nuttin' on me!
2011 Ural T
Handicap mods include Raceway foot box, tank shifter w/reverse, and DIY rear brake pedal mods.

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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by vetsurginc » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:34 pm

Only had a few OMG moements in the rain. The problem was the front disc was much more effective than drums (2011 GU) so bike started to pivot around the front wheel, release on the disc snapped things back straight (OK not snapped but you get the idea) and more gentle re-application slowed things enough to avoid the cager. ABS to even out brake pressue I would think would help keep things straight. THAT would be SUPER!! I mean, even Royal Enfield is doing it
Doug
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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by co_g30 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:44 pm

RC20, well stated.
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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by stagewex » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:46 am

I paid $10K for my Patrol new out-the-door 12 years ago. That included tax and plates.
There is definitely more than 5K in upgrades in all that time (not that they are all that great!). Plus inflation/deflation/dollar value, etc.

I'd sure like to be paying under $2 bucks for a gallon of gas again.
Stagewex

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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by INSUBORDINATOR » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:13 pm

Obviously the only people who pay $15 + K For a URAL are those who want one bad enough TO PAY $15K. A large segment of the working population who must drive Used Cars, just to afford Housing, Clothes, Food, Kids etc. CAN"T AFFORD TO BUY NEW. IT IS, IMO - irresponsible & foolish to place URAL ownership above any of those Necessities of life. A URAL simply isn't as necessary a mode of transport, in the USA, as a CAR or TRUCK - given weather, cargo, & passenger comfort requirements - ALSO COLLISION SAFETY. Dollar for Dollar - I don't think new Urals are worth their price.
I have loved motorcycling my entire life (& walk funny to prove it). I had my family transportation needs covered, before getting myself any Moto-Toys. I never took out a loan to do so, & bought more than 1 basket case bargain for cash, & made money or covered my investment - when selling.
$15K will buy a pretty good family vehicle. I just wouldn't put MY $15K into a new URAL. BUT IF THE COST HAS COME EASY ENOUGH TO YOU - & YOU WON''T MISS IT - BY ALL MEANS BUY THE NICEST ONE THERE IS - OR AN ASTON MARTIN, or a LAMBO. But If you're just getting by, you might want to think over your priorities, & invest in yourself - by buying DISABILITY INSURANCE (in case your hurt & unable to work) BEFORE investing heavily in MOTORCYCLES.
I'm Now in the process of making improvements to my 02 fixer upper, it's all paid for already, & has been satisfactory for what I have in it.

Just my $.02
Current Motorcycles: Improved 2002 Ural Tourist.

"Be who you are & say what you feel. Those that matter won't mind, those that mind - don't matter."

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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by gobium » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:15 pm

Jesus Rice.
My money, my choice !

RC20
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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by RC20 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:38 pm

Obviously the only people who pay $15 + K For a URAL are those who want one bad enough TO PAY $15K. A large segment of the working population who must drive Used Cars, just to afford Housing, Clothes, Food, Kids etc. CAN"T AFFORD TO BUY NEW. IT IS, IMO - irresponsible & foolish to place URAL ownership above any of those Necessities of life. A URAL simply isn't as necessary a mode of transport, in the USA, as a CAR or TRUCK - given weather, cargo, & passenger comfort requirements - ALSO COLLISION SAFETY. Dollar for Dollar - I don't think new Urals are worth their price.
Ok, TS and let me get out my kiddie fiddle. A vasectomy come to mind if you can't use any of the dozen other alternatives (tube cut works gangbusters as well)

We bought a house on a single salary because of a shitty accident. I worked through a major disk rupture and yea, the recovery sucked. We worked together and hard to make our situation work and made major sacrifices along the way. We got it paid off. Its called living withing your means or working on your means. Were we perfect, hell no. But we did enough things right to make it happen. I spent a god awful miserable additional year dealing with total assholes working to pay for the Ural. So up yours.

So sell yours and go find something that makes you happy if that is remotely possible. With that devils club up your butt I doubt anything is, but I found a long time ago you can beyotch pi$$ moan and complain or you can work to do something about it. You make the Grump Old Men look like saints.

Clearly your only reason to be here is to beyotch, go beyotch somewhere else. I know people who have had real $#!+ happen to them in life they did not deserve nor how often that had nothing to do with them. Some got overwhelmed and some made it through. All your negative crap ensure a negative outcome. Positive does not ensure a positive outcome, all your negative means your a miserable bugger to be around.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

RC20
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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by RC20 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:52 pm

RC20, well stated.
Thank you. While not close to my whole job I ran the oversight on contracts in the million to 7 million range.

You get a good idea how damned little you get for even 7 million. Its amazing how fast overhead adds up.

Someone at 40 K a years winds up 60-80 k in all the costs and you still have to make a profit to keep just that person. A dozen employees and higher tech or skill area capable ones (logistics) ? Ergh. Suddenly you are in for over a million a year in salaries.

I have seen a lot of bossiness fail (or limp along as scammers) because they did not have the skill to manage people, work and the future.

I knew I did not have what it took to do that so I worked for someone else all my life.

Its a shame we can't put some people on that pointy end of the spear and watch them fail. Even good ones fail let alone the foolish.
Fear No Gravel
Formerly Owned: ( various rides on others)
Honda 90
2 x CB750K (one a true Japan Model flown to Hawaii by a P3 Orion Sub Patrol Aircraft!)
1 x CB700 SC ala Shaft Drive Nighthawk S (RC20 is the actual in house production Model)
1 x R80GS (ok to start with, learned to love it for what it was)
1 x CB450K

Current:
1 x 2019 cT Terracotta

What I Did (I quit June 2 , 2019)
Mechanic/Technician/Engineer: Electro Mechanical Systems

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sKiZo
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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by sKiZo » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:54 pm

Keeping in mind I suffered some brain damage in my recent accident (good excuse for doing crazy stuff anyway) :P

Worst part of the whole thing for me was sitting on the front porch once the weather turned nice and seeing all the folk riding by on their bikes. There's certainly some truth to the Live To Ride thing, at least in my case, especially after decades in the saddle. Can't ride two wheels anymore, and never much cared for a typical trike, and the Ural provides more flexibility for someone with my injuries. Short story long (brain damage!) I went and spent some settlement money from the accident on the bike and no regrets. It was fun getting grease on my hands making the mods if nothing else, and any time on the road is pure gravy.

And I agree, $15k is too steep for my blood, but I've always been a cheap SOB and bought used for a lot less. In this case, confidence level on the soundness of the machine is high because I know the guy I got it from - he's an mechanics instructor at a local college and knows his way around a garage. I should be able to drive up his way shortly and get some riding tips and lessons as well - I'm keeping a notebook of all the stupid stuff I've already pulled trying to break old habits and learn new ones. Then again, I like a good challenge, and the last bike I rode killed me (I got better) so it's not like things could get much worse or I could break much that ain't been already broke and is at least still under warranty. :roll:
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Evil Kneivel? He got nuttin' on me!
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Handicap mods include Raceway foot box, tank shifter w/reverse, and DIY rear brake pedal mods.

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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by windmill » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:40 pm

It amazes me how small minded some people are.

If someone has different needs, desires, and priorities from them, it's ignorant and arrogant to assume they're somehow foolish, or irresponsible.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

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Re: Why a Ural Costs 15K +

Post by INSUBORDINATOR » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:01 pm

Well there's all kinds own Urals. I paid what I could afford after hunting the right one, & enjoyed repairing it - without having to make payments while doing so, & had no deadlines, & made improvements when I could.
I suggest the small minded are those who get HOSTILE with people they don't even know. I stand by my statement that NO URAL IS WORTH $15K TO ME. However; I probably have that much sweat equity in mine, & It's not for sale - thank you.

You miss my point -FUN CAN BE HAD WITH USED EQUIPMENT. & be sure to have your family taken care of, before shelling out $15K - or indenturing yourself, & maybe have some DISABILITY INSURANCE just in case.

RC20 & WINDMILL - If your ever over this way - keep going !
Current Motorcycles: Improved 2002 Ural Tourist.

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