Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

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BinDerSmokDat
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Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by BinDerSmokDat » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:40 am

So I have alluded to this in the 2019 Upgrades post, but I think Ural is officially saying that a deeper sump with an extended pick-up is best.
See the official drawings below.
The 2019 sump is deeper with an extended pick-up "foot" that protrudes down to the bottom of the pan.

If Ural factory is doing it as an "improvement," doesn't that make it official?
1-9-2019 10-33-28 AM.jpg
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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by Peter Pan » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:45 am

Do they finally use a high volume oil pump?
The original from my 2013 is resting in the drawer because its output is rediculously low.
Even with Jim Pettiti's high volume pump it takes 45 seconds until oil starts to splash all internals and revs rise.
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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by Tomcatfixer » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:11 pm

Correlation does not imply causation, Richworth.
- Chad

Virginia Beach + Gordonsville, Virginia, USA

Current rides:
2015 Ural cT "Mobile Chernobyl", 2001 Ural Patrol "The Patrol", 1999 Ural Tourist "The RPOC", 1994 Honda VFR750F, 1986 Yamaha FZX700S Fazer

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2007 Honda VTR1000 FireStorm (Super Hawk in U.S.)
2001 Buell Blast! - - - - - - - 2005 Yamaha FJR1300
1993 Honda CBR600F2 - -1984 Yamaha FJ1100
1986 Yamaha FZX700S (a different one than above)

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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by windmill » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:46 pm

Yes, and no.
The old "deep sump" conundrum was about the belief that it would increase cooling. The new higher volume sump and pump are intended to work with other changes to improve top end lubrication, and reduce thermal break down.
Putting a deep sump and high volume pump on an older rig won't provide the same result.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by BinDerSmokDat » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:57 am

Peter Pan wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:45 am
Do they finally use a high volume oil pump?
Not sure. The official site says only "improved pick-up design" nothing about increased volume, nor did I say it was increased volume.
But there is someone who may know more than us, see below...
windmill wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:46 pm
The new higher volume sump and pump...
Windmill does that mean "higher volume sump AND higher volume pump" or is only the sump higher volume?
Tomcatfixer wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:11 pm
Correlation does not imply causation, Richworth.
No, it doesn't. But given that Ural usually doesn't fix designs that aren't broken (heck they have taken years or decades to make simple changes to problem areas) there must be a benefit here. When was the last time Ural upgraded a system on the bike for "funsies?"

If the oil system changes are solely to take advantage of the new head design...the changes must supply more oil or help improve oil splash cooling. Or both.
If they help do that with the new design they have to provide some benefit with the old design.
The new changes have only moved increased oil volume from the "nice to have" to "must have" column of the design parameters.

I've always said more oil is a good thing, with/without a high volume pump or extended pick-up.
Oil breakdown happens pretty quickly in air cooled engines, hence the shorter oil change intervals.
I've always felt that more oil is better and Ural now officially thinks so...at least on the new bikes. I think all years would benefit from more oil capacity and flow.

I do run the high volume oil pump on my bike and have upgraded to the spin-on filter for a little better filtration but mostly ease of changing oil.

The only reason I haven't run a deep sump is because I know I have scraped the fins of the stock pan on rocks, so a deep sump would definitely catch more.

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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by windmill » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:34 am

BinDerSmokDat wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:57 am
Peter Pan wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:45 am
Do they finally use a high volume oil pump?
Not sure. The official site says only "improved pick-up design" nothing about increased volume, nor did I say it was increased volume.
But there is someone who may know more than us, see below...
windmill wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:46 pm
The new higher volume sump and pump...
Windmill does that mean "higher volume sump AND higher volume pump" or is only the sump higher volume?
Tomcatfixer wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:11 pm
Correlation does not imply causation, Richworth.
No, it doesn't. But given that Ural usually doesn't fix designs that aren't broken (heck they have taken years or decades to make simple changes to problem areas) there must be a benefit here. When was the last time Ural upgraded a system on the bike for "funsies?"

If the oil system changes are solely to take advantage of the new head design...the changes must supply more oil or help improve oil splash cooling. Or both.
If they help do that with the new design they have to provide some benefit with the old design.
The new changes have only moved increased oil volume from the "nice to have" to "must have" column of the design parameters.

I've always said more oil is a good thing, with/without a high volume pump or extended pick-up.
Oil breakdown happens pretty quickly in air cooled engines, hence the shorter oil change intervals.
I've always felt that more oil is better and Ural now officially thinks so...at least on the new bikes. I think all years would benefit from more oil capacity and flow.

I do run the high volume oil pump on my bike and have upgraded to the spin-on filter for a little better filtration but mostly ease of changing oil.

The only reason I haven't run a deep sump is because I know I have scraped the fins of the stock pan on rocks, so a deep sump would definitely catch more.
If I understood correctly, the new pump does have a higher volume, the push rod tubes are larger diameter, and the oil galleries are bigger. The idea being more oil flows quicker through the top end so it doesn't get cooked so quickly.

I believe they said it doesn't really increase cooling, the larger fins on the, cylinders and heads do that, and it wasn't to address previous shortcomings, but the increase in HP which they mentioned a few times as possibly being up to 46, and the expectation folks will use it for sustained higher speeds.

They didn't say directly, and nobody asked that I heard, but I think the improvements may lead to increased service intervals with the extra oil capacity and reduced thermal break down.

There was a lot going on,, and being said by several folks at IMWAs open house, I may have missed or misunderstood some things.

It was mentioned the new sump and pump will fit older rigs, but wont provide the same advantages as with the new rigs.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by BinDerSmokDat » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:22 pm

Thanks for the details Barry!

They have to be doing it for a reason...we know that Ural doesn't make improvements like this lightly.
While they might not have done it to address previous shortcomings, they felt the oiling system of the older bikes wasn't up to the new changes and sustained highway speeds.
That means the stock system is adequate on older bikes...but again points to Ural affirming that more oil moving quicker is better.

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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by stagewex » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:52 pm

Rich, they have made improvements from the factory like powder coating all the bikes for a few years (disaster) and the 2-3 versions of their steering damper to name a couple. Only way to tell I guess is how it's going to perform on a 2019 with the other new internals.
Not all their "improvements" have been winners and I'm alway skeptical about new and improved anything from anyone.

I do have "COGS" by the way (Cranky Old Guy Syndrome).

Has anyone on this forum ordered a 2019 yet? I know no one actually has one or they have not shipped yet.
Stagewex

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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by Lofty » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:38 pm

stagewex wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:52 pm
Has anyone on this forum ordered a 2019 yet? I know no one actually has one or they have not shipped yet.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=45227&p=678337#p678337
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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by BinDerSmokDat » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:15 pm

Lofty wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:38 pm
stagewex wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:52 pm
Has anyone on this forum ordered a 2019 yet? I know no one actually has one or they have not shipped yet.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=45227&p=678337#p678337
Lofty, I think he meant has anyone ordered a 2019 Ural yet...not a 2019 steering damper.

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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by Tomcatfixer » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:23 pm

No, Rich. Sean ordered a 2019 Ural in "Gaucho" blue.
- Chad

Virginia Beach + Gordonsville, Virginia, USA

Current rides:
2015 Ural cT "Mobile Chernobyl", 2001 Ural Patrol "The Patrol", 1999 Ural Tourist "The RPOC", 1994 Honda VFR750F, 1986 Yamaha FZX700S Fazer

Previous rides:
2007 Honda VTR1000 FireStorm (Super Hawk in U.S.)
2001 Buell Blast! - - - - - - - 2005 Yamaha FJR1300
1993 Honda CBR600F2 - -1984 Yamaha FJ1100
1986 Yamaha FZX700S (a different one than above)

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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by windmill » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:07 pm

stagewex wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:52 pm
Rich, they have made improvements from the factory like powder coating all the bikes for a few years (disaster) and the 2-3 versions of their steering damper to name a couple. Only way to tell I guess is how it's going to perform on a 2019 with the other new internals.
Not all their "improvements" have been winners and I'm alway skeptical about new and improved anything from anyone.

I do have "COGS" by the way (Cranky Old Guy Syndrome).

Has anyone on this forum ordered a 2019 yet? I know no one actually has one or they have not shipped yet.
My 2018 is much better than my 2007, so they are moving forward, and getting a lot more right than wrong. I've actually ridden a 2019, and it's noticably better than my 2018.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by stagewex » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:57 pm

Tomcatfixer wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:23 pm
No, Rich. Sean ordered a 2019 Ural in "Gaucho" blue.

Yes, I got that.
If anyone is going to be a good judge Sean would be it. And not just the newest version of the steering damper.
When does it arrive Sean? Very cool to hear first impressions.

Back to Rich's original posting regarding the new deep-sump. Despite perceived improvement of... something at this point I certainly understand its sticking out further becoming an issue riding off the pavement.
Stagewex

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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by windmill » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:33 am

stagewex wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:57 pm
Back to Rich's original posting regarding the new deep-sump. Despite perceived improvement of... something at this point I certainly understand its sticking out further becoming an issue riding off the pavement.
It's not a deep sump, its a higher volume sump that has the same overall dimensions. It doesn't stick out further.

If you examine the image closely, you'll see how it was accomplished.
Image
stagewex wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:57 pm
Very cool to hear first impressions.
https://advrider.com/f/threads/ural-201 ... s.1348553/
I rode the new 2019 Gear-Up last weekend at the IMZ-Ural Open House in Redmond. I've never owned a Ural. I've had several opportunities to drive one, though. My longest "test drive" was two years ago on some trails around Moab Utah when I attended the Ural Gathering and drove a couple of different well-sorted Ural rigs. LINK

Though I understand the appeal these rigs generate, a Ural has never appealed to me personally. Until Saturday. The 2019 Gear-Up did not feel like an antique. The gearbox felt good, suspension was good, steering of course was good, but the surprising thing was the throttle response. Good acceleration from a standing start, and at 45mph in 3rd gear I was able to snap my neck with a hard twist on the throttle. Clearly the bike had plenty more to give above 45mph in 3rd but we were on a 40mph city street (and riding in a group) so I can't say more specifically how much more it had to give. But I sure did like that throttle response, and the motor idled quietly and pulled smoothly.

I came home from that test drive and actually told Queen Bee that a Ural was no longer NOT a possibility. Though, if you saw my comments about the E-Ural (which I also test rode that day) in the E-Ural thread, you'll know which one really stokes my imagination.
Barry

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills".

2007 Patrol 100k km and counting,
2018 M70

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Re: Ural Official-Deep Sump/Extended Pick-Up is Best!

Post by stagewex » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:33 am

This above is someone else's review ("never owed a Ural before") but positive. The daily challenges of full-time ownership is what we read on these forum pages, not a test ride. Usually if it was a negative one everyone would be jumping on the "well, he never really owned one before so doesn't know".

But your own positive comment and test ride had more credence theres a sign they are going in a good direction.
Last time I test rode a new Ural was 2014 up at Lake George/Americade. Even more hoopla about the first EFI Urals than this 2019.
1st gen of the software and I found them to be whimpy & timid, throttle response was like a dead fish. Disappointed and could not wait to get back on my own rig which as a "carbie" already "snapped my head back". At least the Ural version of that, HaHa.
Granted, I think the dealer who set the demo did a terrible job of it. One was inoperative and 2-3 of the others had other put-together-issues.

I rode out of the dealers parking lot in July 2007 with a top of the line Patrol for $10,600.00 pretty much out the door and if you look at the year-by-year changes '07 really was a huge amount of them. Darn good product and I DO want Ural to temp me. Nothing as of yet.
We'll see if 2019 is in fact the Holy Grail.
Stagewex

2007 Ural Patrol, 2006 Yamaha TW200, 1995 BMW K75, 1991 Honda XR250L, 1969 BMW r60/2 US model

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