The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Start oil threads here so they can be ignored and/or ridiculed by most of us (except for those hardcore few that live for that kinda stuff).
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Here's the place for you to debate what oil is best. Post your oil related topics her so we don't clutter up the other sections. Most people avoid oil threads like the plague.
fmaxwell
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby fmaxwell » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:56 pm

niteblues59 wrote:
fmaxwell wrote:I would love to take credit for original thinking there, but deep the big diesel equipment manufacturers have long tied oil change interval to sump size; deeper sump means longer oil change interval. Caterpiller even lists two different change intervals for the exact same engine in the same equipment.

These ain't Caterpillar motors...or diesel.

I know. Ural engines are built by faeries and don't put combustion byproducts into their oil. They don't experience blow-by like any other air-cooled engine. The parts-per-million readings for contaminants is totally unrelated to the volume of oil. Oil analysis that can be done for all other gasoline and diesel engines is meaningless on our enchanted Ural engines. We change our oil because that magic spell that keeps it lubricating wears off. :sarcasm:

Quaker State web site wrote:Oil changes are necessary, not so much because oil wears out, but chiefly to flush contaminates from the engine before they build up to dangerous concentrations.

Motor oil is changed, whether in a Caterpiller diesel engine, or a Ural engine, because it has become contaminated and degraded. If you have less oil, the contamination concentration is higher and it degrades quicker. This isn't some kind of weird new theory about engine oil. More oil (bigger sump size) means the oil stays fresher longer. Ford extended the oil change interval on the 2011 V-6 Mustang to 10,000 miles maximum by putting a 10 quart oil pan on it.

Question: why do you believe Ural crankcase oil is changed if not because of the concentration of contaminants, the increased acidity, or depletion of additive packages?
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby Msblu79 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:26 am

If some one offered a skid plate for deep sumps I would consider it cause I go off-road but as of yet I haven't found one. I just completed a BOCES welding course and bought a low budget MIG welder, I should put it to good use and make one to fit myself, may not look pretty but it'll weigh a ton with my welds! :lol:
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby fmaxwell » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:27 pm

Msblu79 wrote:If some one offered a skid plate for deep sumps I would consider it cause I go off-road but as of yet I haven't found one. I just completed a BOCES welding course and bought a low budget MIG welder, I should put it to good use and make one to fit myself, may not look pretty but it'll weigh a ton with my welds! :lol:


As much as I see advantages to deep sumps, if I off-roaded my Ural, I probably would stick with a standard sump and change my oil more often. If you hit your skid plate, you transfer a lot of shock throughout the frame and you're still giving up valuable ground clearance.
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby nicklogan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:53 pm

Being a noob here I hesitate to stir this pot but here goes:

thread89-169171: Question on Deep Sump Cooling
Doing this modification to a 2006 URAL 750 cc 40 hp engine did show a 10 degree F. decrease in stabilized running oil temperature. Temperature was measured with a bimetal dipstick dial thermometer. Temperatures were (Fahrenheit) 312 degrees standard sump & 302 degrees deep sump. Tests were done under very similar environmental conditions (barometric pressure, ambient temperature, relative humidity). Engine was run in each configuration at 55 mph for 1 hour at 83 degrees F. Temperature readings reached maximums at about 35 minutes and 50 minutes, respectively.
The greater surface area created a approximately 3% decrease in maximum oil temperature in the sump.
No head temperature readings were taken.
CONCLUSION: Oil temperature is not SIGNIFICANTLY reduced with the deep oil sump conversion.


From this site: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=277391

Other posts from there might be of interest to the oil obsessed among us. I plan on using a deep sump (no offroading, the extra quart won't break the bank, and I got it for shipping cost). The oil sump extension hasn't been bought yet.

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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby BillyG » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:24 am

If he would have gone 1.5 hours he would have seen no difference in temps between the two. Or of he would have run the standard amount of oil in the deep sump he might have seen a slightly cooler temp, but probably not measurable with the thermometer he was using.
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby mr. cob » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:35 pm

Howdy All,

I mounted a deep sump pan equipped with open ended tubes running length-wise through it to aid in oil cooling, had ceramic coated headers to help keep heat from radiating to the surrounding areas, fans mounted just above and in front of the cylinders to help move air across the heads, painted all exposed surfaces flat black to help radiate heat, the damned engine ran so cold I had to install a 12 volt electric blanket wrapped around the engine so the carburetors wouldn't freeze.
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby jndomin » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:54 am

BillyG wrote:If he would have gone 1.5 hours he would have seen no difference in temps between the two. Or of he would have run the standard amount of oil in the deep sump he might have seen a slightly cooler temp, but probably not measurable with the thermometer he was using.

I'm not, at all, disagreeing with the points BillyG raises, but I'm the guy who did the test refered to. And as a point of reference, the rise in oil temperature had stabilized at around 40 minutes into the test. Still, there was no SIGNIFICANT difference was found in the oil temperatures when using a deep sump oil pan vs a standard oil pan. As for using less oil in the deep sump, I agree that I probably would have observes slightly lower temperatures. I don't believe this difference woulod have been significant either. For those who want to lower their oil temperature, I believe the most cost effective option is the style of oil cooler attached below. Someday, when I get the time, I intend to test this. Meanwhile I have no qualms, at all, running my URAL as it is. I just monitor the oil condition frequently.
briel_oil_sump_cooler_4_slash_6_BMW.jpg
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby eastbloc » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:40 pm

Bump for an interesting thread :lol:
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby Daytripper » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:35 am

:lol: :lol: 5 Years :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby Jonkman » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:23 am

Excellent thread! Linked it to our FB group so that we don't have to re-invent the wheel...sump pan :D
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby flcruiser2302 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:00 am

Gotta throw in my thoughts here, just like those about the cats not being restrictive, excuse me?! Anyway, comparing this to a deep fryer is about as ridiculous as anything I have heard, other than a deep sump not helping. First, this is not a deep fryer where the oil is being heated by a burner from below. The burner in this case is on top and is sucking oil from the bottom, that is a non heat generating area and is constantly being cooled by ambient moving air. That is why the pick up is designed to pick up oil from the bottom as the hotter stuff is coming from above. Science does apply and hot stays high, cooler stays low, hence the sucking of the oil from the bottom. Am I just that simple to not see why anyone cannot see why adding a deeper sump, a longer pickup, and more oil will not change the temp of the machine above? As soon as I save the money I am spring for the deep sump, extended pick up AND the higher capacity oil pump. I guarantee that my machine will thank me many miles down the road and I will feel much better along the way. Besides, if I were really that frugal with my $$ I would have never bought a Ural to begin with.
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby Wildhorse Cafe » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:52 am

2 cents? I'd give it away for free. Deep Sump= 33% more oil, 33% less duty cycle for the oil, 33% more cooling time and area. Unless you just make short trips. Your oil should have plenty of time to heat up and dissipate volatile contaminates. But just having 33% more oil is reason enough for me. :foilhead:
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby hotflash44 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:58 pm

My head is spinning too much to read, why is more oil better than the stock amount, when the oil gets hot shouldn't it be the same temp regardless of quantity, 2 qt at 200 deg is the same as 3 qts at 200deg. whats the advantage? oil is to transfer heat thus lubricating and keeping a thin film between metal parts. only thing i see is it will maybe take longer for 3qt to heat up than 2qts. Bottom line for me is save my money/energy and buy top quality oil and change when recommended. Now all that being said almost all high performance racing machines, cars,airplanes, boats and motorcycles all use high volume oil sumps so i must be wrong! :?
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby JohnBG » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:20 pm

This thread has been running almost 10 years! Huzzah!
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Re: The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby hotflash44 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:25 pm

JohnBG, absolutely amazing maybe good for 10 more, if new members like me don't search previous posting that good, and just ask the same old questions.Oh well probably the nature of forums! :)
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