The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Start oil threads here so they can be ignored and/or ridiculed by most of us (except for those hardcore few that live for that kinda stuff).
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JohnBG
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The Great Deep Sump Debate!

Postby JohnBG » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:36 pm

I finally had a chance to install my deep sump & longer pickup tube on the Raven today. Link: http://sovietsteeds.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=262

Rather than starting the "great deep sump debate" there, I thought I'd open it up here in the "Oil Threads" section where it belongs.

I talked to BillyG the night before I installed it and he gave me his "deep sumps don't work" theory for 10 minutes.

I installed it anyway Bill - sorry... :lol: I got tired of it sitting there on my shelf... :P

Folks can debate the "deep sump" effectiveness from now until the end of time.

IMO, maybe it helps, maybe it don't, but nobody has been able to prove that having an additonal 50% oil cpacity is a "bad thing" to me.

I will concede the point that it doesn't help cylinder head temperatures one bit as the cylinders/heads are air cooled on a Ural, but all of the bearings, cranks, and gears inside the engine are oil cooled and not air-cooled.

Let the great deep sump debate begin.... :twisted:
Last edited by JohnBG on Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
John Grocke aka "JohnBG"
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Current Rides:
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2002 Harley Road King FLHPI
1997 Harley Electra Glide FLHTPI
Honda Nighthawk 650 from the mid-80's
1980 Suzuki RM125T
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Postby Ragman » Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:13 pm

I have nothing to base any idea on, having had the deep sump on, from day one. I have ridden slowly through the desert, high revs, very hot days, with ground temperatures over 130 degrees, and air temps up 117, I think the hottest day. This was done without the rig overheating, and no hot smells other than the usual hot engine smell. In other words, with the deep sump installed, the rig ran cool enough in the hottest place in the country.

That is pretty good, as on a couple of occasions in the really hot weather, we saw ATV machines broken down in the heat.

So. No matter if you like the deep sump, or not, it works in the desert at temperatures it is dangerous to walk about in. (It would not surprise me at all to learn that the rig would have done fine without the deep sump)
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Postby tomcat101147 » Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:00 am

I had a deep sump on my VW van. It didn't help. VW's suck exhaust valves with or without good oil cooling! :brickwall: The only way to prevent it is to do a valve job with new valves installed at around 75,000 miles or kiss it good bye! Past that you're on borrowed time. My Olds has 160,000 on it and it runs fine! 8)

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more sumpin

Postby WEGUNTER » Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:42 am

Greetings John: Bought a deep sump and two duro's from Wagners. Got em in 3 days flat. Your deep sump installation instructions showed up at just the right time!!!!!!! I am at 3,500 km and I plan on putting on the deep sump at 5,000 as well. I didn't know the efficiency of this device had been questioned. Wagner's told me it would absolutely help with the heat. After the deep sump, I think my next project will be to install some bottom engine air deflectors like ken installed. Have you done this????? What did you use for the deflectors.
Next question I got is on those black pipes Modtop is selling. Is there a demonstrable improvement in performance??????? I like the Black pipes, but I may stick with chrome since I would also like to keep the Raven as close to stock as possible. That may sound silly (since it is in reality nothing more than a Black Patrol) but one of only thirty has got to count for something.

Bill
Pinehurst NC
2006 Raven (stock)

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Postby chicagorandy » Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:16 am

Will a deep sump reduce engine "heat"? Probably not very much. At some point whatever quantity of oil you have in there is going to be pretty much the same temp +/- a few degrees. I'm thinking deep fryers? Regardless of their capacity, they will all get to the same operating temp. As it relates to cooking, the more oil the LESS change in temp from the addition of the colder food. On a Ural engine the heat sources remain constant, regardless of sump capacity. Changing the sump does not change the oil pressure or increase the size of the oil passages.The size difference isn't "that" much more cooling surface.

Will a deep sump increase the volume of oil that can hold suspended particles? Yes, no question about it. 32 more oz of fluid means lower concentrations of any particulates. Change your oil often and that ability is less important.

Will a deep sump give you some added peace of mind? As I always post, it's like chicken soup when you have a cold. It couldn't hurt and it tastes good.

Are there any down sides to the deep sump? Actually only three come to mind.

If you ride it cold weather like I do, as in low teens and single digits, that extra quart is NOT going to help get the engine up to operating temps.

Oil changes will cost you more. Not an issue if you are a low mileage rider. For those who are changing oil ever 4-6 weeks, that extra quart could buy some gas instead.

You reduce the ground clearance of the engine. Those who stay on pavement or at least gravel will have all the clearaance they need.

I guess I have less "debate" in me on this topic than I thought - :? :D
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Postby Robbie Moore » Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:53 am

Deep sumps in the high performance engine world are used to prevent oil starvation due to running at high rpms when the pump moves more oil and can drain back to the pan and cornering at high G's. They are not use to cool oil, thats why they make oil coolers.

If you want cooler oil you have to ask what makes your oil hot and address that first. Cooler oil doesn't mean a cooler motor. These motors are AIR-COOLED there isn't enough oil circulation (In ural motors ) to really make a difference.

You could have a 55 gallon drum for an oil sump filled with 56 gallons of oil pack the drum with dry ice and still overheat these motors.
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Postby Gummiente » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:16 am

chicagorandy wrote:Will a deep sump reduce engine "heat"? Probably not very much.
I recall seeing somewhere that a deep sump with extended pickup resulted in a heat reduction of 20 degrees under normal operating conditions. I think it was over on RIMC, but no doubt that post was recently culled.

chicagorandy wrote:At some point whatever quantity of oil you have in there is going to be pretty much the same temp +/- a few degrees. I'm thinking deep fryers? Regardless of their capacity, they will all get to the same operating temp. As it relates to cooking, the more oil the LESS change in temp from the addition of the colder food. On a Ural engine the heat sources remain constant, regardless of sump capacity.
Very good point, I hadn't thought of it that way. Makes sense, but I still think extra oil capacity is a very good thing when it comes to prolonging the life of bearings and bushings. Plus, the factory recommends an extra 1/2 litre of oil in the sump during hot weather operation, as it increases the amount slung over the engine internals thus helping with the cooling.

chicagorandy wrote:Changing the sump does not change the oil pressure or increase the size of the oil passages.
Irrelevant on an Ural anyway, as it is splash-lubed and not pressurised like the Dnepr. I believe a deep sump is a good thing, especially for my situation which sees the Ural doing long distance touring, fully loaded, at speeds of 90-95kmh. I don't go off road very much with it, but when I do I am very careful of the reduced ground clearance (learned that the hard way once). I find in the winter that changing to 15W40 results in easier startups and I'm willing to pay the cost of an extra litre of oil at each maintenance interval, if only for the benefit of the peace of mind it gives me.

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Postby BillyG » Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:55 pm

First, there is no way on earth that a deep sump will cool oil temp. by 20 degrees. Like mentioned above, the engine is going to reach a designed operating temperature which will include the oil. More oil just means it will take a little longer for the oil to reach temp. Sort of like saying two pots of water are on the stove on "High". One pot is two quarts and one pot is 3...does the 3 qt. not boil? Does it boil at a cooler temp? Is the water at the top or bottom of the pot cooler that the water in the 2 qt.? No. Well at least not enough to where you could measure it will a common thermometer.

If you put a 1L and a 2L bottle of water outside on the pavement...will the 2L bottle stay cooler? No.

Sumps are for adding oil to engines running at or above designed max rpm to keep from emptying the sump. HV pump are also needed/used. The long pick-ups are for the high G's in racing turns (or ovals) where the oil is pulled to one side or the other. The long pick-up keeps the the tube in the oil so you don't end up sucking air or frothy oil. When you see the statement, "our deep sump keeps your engine running cool". What they mean is the above...if you can't get the oil, things heat up a seize...very fast. You won't see your engine temp go up.

The factory does not "recommend" adding 1/2 qt. of oil to the standard sump...they just say it is o.k. to do so...but it ain't. That can actually make your oil hotter. The sump is designed to "cool" (which is a relative term) a certain amount of oil. To cool the oil, the oil must be able to flow down the inner face of the sump to transfer heat. Most folks think the oil just sits there and gets cooled by the air flow. No. There is a thin boundary layer along the sump wall which acts as an insulator...similar to the boundary layer on the piston dome that keeps your aluminum piston from melting during the combustion process. If the boundary layer is not moved (or the oil does not flow across it), there is not an efficient transfer of heat (this is why an oil cooler works...it moves the oil through the cooler...like a radiator...otherwise you'd just need a big sump of water to cool the engine, right?). So...if you put more oil in the sump you leave less area for the oil to flow at the velocity it requires to allow hear transfer past the boundary layer. You would actually have cooler oil if you used the deep sump and used the standard amount of oil so there would be a larger surface for the oil to flow down allowing more transfer of heat. But you could not measure the difference without a highly sensitive scientific type thermometer...not a dip stick thermometer.

The only time a deep sump/long pick-up might come in handy for a Ural would be if you were climbing very steep grades where the oil might get pulled away from the pick-up on a standard sump...but even that is a bit of a stretch.

Then there are the folks who try to justify that "carrying an extra quart of oil can't be a bad thing" or " it dilutes the bad stuff". Yes it can...and not really.

I'm kinda tickled reading the posts of all these folks who are sticking CHT's and oil probes on their bikes and reading the numbers the guys running deeps sumps vs. stock are getting...the same.

They boys who designed the engine did a good job. The stock sump is plenty good and adding more is not going to do a bit of good. The factory even came to the same conclusion and said so in no uncertain terms.

But, ultimately, it's your bike, your money...
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The "Unofficial Ural Service Manual" can be viewed at: http://www.myural.com

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Postby Robbie Moore » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:08 pm

In the world of air cooled VW's Gene Berg Enterprises is one, if not THE authority on type 1 motors. They have a very interesting tech section that addresses deep sumps, oil coolers and an interesting piece at the bottom on gauges.

http://www.geneberg.com/techtips.php

I had the pleasure of meeting Gene a few years back and he was a very kind and generous man asking me question about the mods I had done to my lowly almost stock plainjane '76 F/I bug.
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Postby Gummiente » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:03 pm

BillyG wrote:They boys who designed the engine did a good job. The stock sump is plenty good and adding more is not going to do a bit of good. The factory even came to the same conclusion and said so in no uncertain terms.
So why then do they list a deep sump on the Accessories page of the IMZWA website?

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Postby Robbie Moore » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:11 pm

Because the sell and make money by doing so.
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Postby BillyG » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:58 pm

Sucker born every minute comes to mind too....folks sell tap water in a bottle for a buck and folks soak it up.

Oh yeah, I forgot one other reason folks slap DS's on their mills...to get the crank out of the oil to prevent loss of rpm's from roping. Again, something someone who is racing and attempting to eek every single rpm out of an engine.
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The "Unofficial Ural Service Manual" can be viewed at: http://www.myural.com

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Postby Gummiente » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:27 pm

BillyG wrote:Oh yeah, I forgot one other reason folks slap DS's on their mills...to get the crank out of the oil to prevent loss of rpm's from roping. Again, something someone who is racing and attempting to eek every single rpm out of an engine.
That's a racing application, I'm more interested in how it applies to the Ural. I'm not looking for extra HP, nor do I consider myself a "sucker". I have had a couple of trusted sources explain to me the benefits of a deep sump and extended pickup and their reasoning made sense to me. However, after reading your post I am left with more questions than answers and I am interested in discussing the merits (which according to you are non-existent in this case) or disadvantages of using a deep sump.

So with that in mind, you said: "The sump is designed to "cool" (which is a relative term) a certain amount of oil. To cool the oil, the oil must be able to flow down the inner face of the sump to transfer heat." I still have the stock sump from my Ural and after looking at it I'm not seeing this "inner face" you've described. I'm also unsure what you mean by the "thin boundary layer along the sump wall which acts as an insulator". Could you expand on those points, please?

"Then there are the folks who try to justify that "carrying an extra quart of oil can't be a bad thing" or " it dilutes the bad stuff". Yes it can...and not really." I'm one of those folks. I'm interested in knowing your reasoning behind this in more detail. Understand that I am NOT questioning your experience or knowledge, I'm simply trying to learn more is all.

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Postby Ragman » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:28 pm

I would imagine they sell a deep sump, because enough people have asked for it - in business, you do not necessarily do what is right, you do what is profitable.
Милаж
I'm kind of broken now.
2012 Can Am Spyder - Bright Red
Gone Now:
2011 Урал 'Готовьтесь' - лес Камуфляж
2010 but New Yamaha TW 200
2005 Урал Турист- Black - converted to 2wd . missed very much. * 2002 Yamaha TW 200 - 1999 Royal Enfield Bullet - . * many others lost in the fog of time.

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Postby Robbie Moore » Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:19 pm

In a deep sump the oil will stratify hot oil on top as it drain down from the motor, cool oil on the bottom the coolest oil will be in contact with the surfaces of the bottom and sides of the sump. There is nothing to move that cool oil off those surfaces so, it will stay stuck to those surfaces. That oil is the insulating boundary layer that traps heat in the sump.

An oil cooler is a heat exchanger it works because of the movement of oil through it and the amount of surface area the oil contacts.

It's a sump not a cooler.

It all just a silly discussion any how I could have a coil with liquid nitrogen running though the oil sump and still overheat the motor.

To cool the motor you must cool the fire and help the motor breath better but most important keep the air moving over the heads. Rid heat where heat is created.
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