Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

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Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby hrpchr » Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:46 pm

Today I did my first ignition timing check on my 2008 Patrol.

First of all, I do realize that there are two different arrows marking the flywheel. I understand that the “plain arrow” ( --> ) is for Top Dead Center for use in setting valve lash. I understand that the “dot arrow” ( . --> ) is for Ignition Timing for use in setting ignition timing. I painted the TDC arrow black to make it easier to see when rotating the engine by kick starter. I painted the Ignition dot arrow silver to make it have a higher contrast with the flywheel for strobe viewing.

:? When using a timing light, viewing through the M3 port on the right side of the case, with the inductive pickup on the right-side plug wire, I am seeing two different timing arrows illuminated by the strobe. Both arrows are light colored (silver) and are, just estimating, about 1/4" to 3/8” apart when viewed with the strobe. One of the arrows is well aligned with the reference mark on the M3 opening. The other arrow is showing above the first, near the top of the M3 opening, with the strobe held in the same position. The idle speed is somewhere in the 800-900 rpm range (maybe).

With these givens, here are the questions…

1) Is it customary to see two different illuminations of the one timing arrow when timing a Ural?

2) Is the “two arrows showing” cause for alarm that there is an ignition or timing problem?

3) What causes the double arrow illumination? I thought the wasted spark was coincidental with the firing spark.

Thanks
Chris

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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby hrpchr » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:20 am

Hmm, 61 views but no comments or answers. Maybe I asked redundant questions that were previously posted.
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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby Bilgekeeldave » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:19 am

Maybe you had 61 Dnepr guys look at your post.

I time mine statically on the "p" stamped on the flywheel.

Sorry, I can't help.

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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby niteblues59 » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:36 am

Umm, I don't use a timing light...sorry, no help from me either :oops:
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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby hrpchr » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:07 pm

Thanks for the responses.

Evidently, I had my standard egocentric approach to things -- figured everyone has the same, uses it the same, and does it the same.

I have no clue what static timing of a Ural means.
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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby niteblues59 » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:45 pm

Well, I have a type 5 with the 'hockey puck' mounted on the outside.

What I do for timing is to remove the front engine cover, exposing the cover plate for the interrupter. It has two screws holding it in place. I loosen the two screws so the plate can rotate. Then I rotate the flywheel with the kicker until the firing mark is aligned through the view hole. Then I turn on the ignition and the kill switch. Then I rotate the plate until the light on the hockey puck GOES OUT (as ReCycled says, it's counterintuitive). Then I tighten the screws to hold the plate at that spot. Put the engine cover back on and viola! It's done.

I don't start the engine to do this- therefore it's 'static' timing.

You probably have the Ducati ignition, so YMMV.
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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby hrpchr » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:26 pm

Wow.. with that explanation I can see why you would do the static timing instead of the um.. um.. dynamic? timing. That seems almost too simple to even bother with the timing light option. Thanks.. I am a little further along the Ural learning curve now.
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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby cdscoot » Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:03 pm

Do the new ignition modules have this little light too?
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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby Gautrek » Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:26 pm

I fitted a Boyer electronic ignition on my Ural a while ago.I had timed the Mk3 system i had first using the arrows.But when i tried to time the boyer to the timing marks it ran crap.So i ended up getting my dad to keep the bike running while i rotated the timing unit until it sounded right.We got a nice "crack" when we opened the throttle.
So as to timing them i can be off no help what so ever.
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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby gimp4930 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:52 am

the double timing you refer to may be because while one cylinder is firing the other also recieves a spark? does that make any sense?
the ural has a redendant spark system where both cylinders spark while only 1 is firing.
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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby fnlboy » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:26 pm

Well I am not sure if this is correct, but I seem to remember that a cylinder under compression will have a lower ionization voltage so I think that the spark for the working cylinder (in this case the right) will have a spark which will slightly precede the non-working one so your real spark will come before the wasted spark causing 2 distinct images. It seems odd that it would be that different though. I thought it would just be blurry. I will go check mine.
OK back. Mine does show 2 "arrows"
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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby hrpchr » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:32 pm

Thanks FNLBoy!

I was starting to think that maybe I had some issue that needed attention because no one else seemed to respond that they too have "two arrows" with a timing light. One of the reasons I was concerned is that after I re-torqued my head studs and set the valve lash, the engine sounded sort of different. I wasn't too concerned about the change because I did have one valve (left exhaust) that checked cold at .016" before I adjusted it. I expected some valve train sound change.

But, I had another new sound. I'm not sure if it was there before the valve adjustment made it quiet enough to hear, or it was a result of my torque and adjustment. The new sound is a "tinkling" sound, maybe a very light "pinging" sound. It sounds like it is coming from the right jug, when over 45mph, while accelerating or going up a slight hill. If I give it more throttle, the sound goes away. If I back off the throttle just a hair, the sound goes away.

I had considered it is pinging or pre-detonation, but none of the adjustments "should" have had that effect. When I checked the timing, and saw the "second arrow" I thought maybe that was the cause of the pinging sound -- maybe some odd breakdown in the ignition module or whatever that was giving a faulty early spark to the right jug.

I ran a lap of about 10 miles on some secondary roads today, and the pinging is still there, with the same indications. I had added two shims and drilled my slides to 7/64" and wanted to check the results. The bike responded well to that modification, yet it still has the slight pinging. Checked the sparkplugs, but after a half mile or so at subdivision speed, and had light tan on the left, slightly lighter colored on the right. Likewise, the right plug seemed to have about 20 tiny metalic looking dots on the ceramic. I hope its not molten aluminum. That is why the timing issue is paramount for me right now.
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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby BorisBulldog » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:27 am

hrpchr wrote:Today I did my first ignition timing check on my 2008 Patrol.

First of all, I do realize that there are two different arrows marking the flywheel. I understand that the “plain arrow” ( --> ) is for Top Dead Center for use in setting valve lash. I understand that the “dot arrow” ( . --> ) is for Ignition Timing for use in setting ignition timing. I painted the TDC arrow black to make it easier to see when rotating the engine by kick starter. I painted the Ignition dot arrow silver to make it have a higher contrast with the flywheel for strobe viewing.

:? When using a timing light, viewing through the M3 port on the right side of the case, with the inductive pickup on the right-side plug wire, I am seeing two different timing arrows illuminated by the strobe. Both arrows are light colored (silver) and are, just estimating, about 1/4" to 3/8” apart when viewed with the strobe. One of the arrows is well aligned with the reference mark on the M3 opening. The other arrow is showing above the first, near the top of the M3 opening, with the strobe held in the same position. The idle speed is somewhere in the 800-900 rpm range (maybe).

With these givens, here are the questions…

1) Is it customary to see two different illuminations of the one timing arrow when timing a Ural?

2) Is the “two arrows showing” cause for alarm that there is an ignition or timing problem?

3) What causes the double arrow illumination? I thought the wasted spark was coincidental with the firing spark.

Thanks





Well there's your problem. Why would you want to time a bike under 2 years old?

There's MC's and cars that have been run for 15+ years with no timing issues. I like to tinker too, but if ain't broken I tinker in the garden!
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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby chicagorandy » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:03 am

The switch to the 'new' Ducati ignition system meant that newer Ural owners now need a timing light.

My '03 started life with the Type 4 and now has the Type 5 module, both versions have the VERY convenient LED system for setting the timing with the engine off.

The whole timing light thing sounds like a royal P.I.A. to me.
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Re: Timing a Ural, um, which lit arrow is it?

Postby MartyL » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:17 am

Yeah but the type 5 seems to have it's issues. Some people like the new system, some went back to points. A timing light is no really no big deal.
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