The Big Red One

Are ya having a problem with your rig? We'll try to help. Share your tech tips and experiences here. Dr. Billy Glaser, author of the "Unofficial 750 Ural Service Manual" site myural.com, is moderating this section.
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Here is the place for you to ask questions about or share your experiences about servicing or repairing your Ural or Dnepr. Please post topics concering modifications or accesories in the "Modifications and Acessories" section. Please post oil related questions in the "Oil Threads" section.
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Re: The Big Red One

Postby MKB » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:13 am

dneper lover - the bulbs aren’t marked with voltage so far.
EricN - thanks for the video and intel on valves/heads.
GregAus - by horizontal mount of carbs do you mean bolts are oriented horizontal rather than vertically?

Regarding the generator are you saying that if I run a 12 volt regulator like the pp330 I can run a 12 volt system even with the 414 generator?

Pulling the crank . . . That sounds like a big job. Any way to clean the slingers without pulling the crank? I’m capable but hell, that feels deeep. I guess no oil filter will make for more work. I will need to find more info on that oil cleaning system.

Mixing bowl of doom . . . The points/coil cover? I like clean look of the coil inside that cover. Has anyone tried ventilating that cover to dissipate heat and avoid cooking the coil?
The advance unit is unreliable? Like changing advance curves or grenading completely?

Thanks again everyone.
I’ll keep you posted once parts arrive.
Cheers! MKB
1967 Ural M63
1984 HD Ironhead
1972 Ford F-250 4x4

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Re: The Big Red One

Postby Eric N » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:10 am

Hey MKB,

My advice on this is the opposite of prudent, but if it was my engine I'd take the risk that the slingers are ok. There's no way to see them with the crank in the engine, you can pull the cylinders and try to snake a diagnostic camera around the inside of the case, but my experience is that doesn't really work very well.

The slingers are the black circle things on the ends of the crankshaft.

Image

Oil catcher is probably a better term. They catch oil, and if you notice the hole leading into the rod bearing being half covered by the lip of the slinger, the oil gets flung around the lip until it pours into that hole. There's a 1/2" or so of extra canyon, for lack of a better term, that can fill with crud due centrifugal force and the lack of an oil filter. I'm not sure that the slinger filling with crud will starve the crank, others know much more than I do, but it would likely start packing grime into the crank which isn't good either.

Removing the crank, depending on how sealed the end is, can be easy or a royal pain. The crank on my 650 was already shot, and when I destroyed the end plate trying to pull it off (sealed with a crapload of shellac, heat and solvent didn't do squat), I got pi$$ed and forced it out with a sledge hammer. A good crank would not have survived that process. There are of course better ways to remove a crank, but there's a risk you'll damage it when you pull it out and put it back in. FYI, you can't shove it back in or it will bend, you have to pull it back in. Most manuals show how to make the tool to do that.

I, and again I do stupid things, would just run the engine as is. If the crank gets damaged, ok replace it then, but if it's fine there's a lot of work involved with making sure it's fine. Same with the clutch, I'd drive it around first, if it feels ok, I'd wait to do any clutch work until I had a reason to pull the gearbox out. Granted I'd also be super hesitant to take the bike on a long road trip, but for putting around town the timebomb element wouldn't concern me as much. If your dad wants to use it for touring, then pull the engine and check/ rebuild everything. If it's a toy to play with locally, AAA is just a phone call away should something go wrong.
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Re: The Big Red One

Postby MKB » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:56 am

Eric N
Thanks for the perspective on the crank. I’m still considering options there.

The nice part of the mechanicals is that they are fairly easy to see if one looks, however I’m still wanting a manual and struggling with older manuals being in Russian exclusively and newer English manuals dealing with bikes that are much more modern. However some of the charm of these bikes is that they seem to not have changed too much over the years.

Perhaps a period correct manual in Russian and the oldest English one I can find is the solution. Thoughts?

I’m going through the lights right now and have found a mixture of American 12 volt bulbs and Russian 6 volt bulbs. I’ve located what seems to be a decent source for plug and play 6 volt led replacements: http://www.dynamoregulatorconversions.c ... s-shop.php

I wonder if others here have pursued the led 6 volt path and found good sources in US?

As I wait for parts to arrive from Eastern Europe I’m spending some more time hunting around in the spare parts box. I do indeed have a set of naked heads with the vertical ports that match the old carbs. Found a missing piece in one carb but the heads look pretty good. Decent valve seats. Just need a normal rebuild.

Thanks for the help!
1967 Ural M63
1984 HD Ironhead
1972 Ford F-250 4x4

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Re: The Big Red One

Postby dneprlover » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:29 am

If you wish to keep the newer heads, consider buying the Indian VM28 licenced Mikuni carbs from a Royal Enfield. Compliance fittings are available and they are fairly easy to dial in.
Your CVK32s should raise enough money to buy a set and possibly have change.

Chinese Pz28 will only fit your older heads.
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Re: The Big Red One

Postby GregAus » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:43 am

This shows the various ignition systems http://www.russianiron.com/eafranke_ural2/PartIV.pdf Yours is the ПМ302А (PM302A). It is this unit that is jokingly referred to as the "mixing bowl of doom". The advance unit pictured in the pdf is the type you want. The one-piece unit is known to fall apart.

As to slingers, the only way to check them is to remove the crankshaft. Not difficult but requires special tools which you may or not be able to borrow or hire from a BMW /2 specialist or make yourself to remove rear bearing and to re-install. Do a search for "clean BMW oil slingers" to help you make up your mind. Original guidelines were to check and clean the slingers between 30-50,000 km. You've got a bike that's 47 years old, no knowledge of the true mileage and no knowledge of prior maintenance. Were oil changes done regularly or was the oil just regularly topped-up????

Here is the story of a M-63 restoration http://www.russianiron.com/forums/index ... 15431&st=0 and a M-66 engine rebuild (same as M-63 except for oil filter) http://www.russianiron.com/forums/index ... 15676&st=0

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Re: The Big Red One

Postby MKB » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:46 am

GregAus.
The link didn't work. Have another pic of bad or good advance unit?
Thanks!!
1967 Ural M63
1984 HD Ironhead
1972 Ford F-250 4x4

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Re: The Big Red One

Postby dneprlover » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:15 am

GregAus wrote:This shows the various ignition systems http://www.russianiron.com/eafranke_ural2/PartIV.pdf Yours is the ПМ302А (PM302A). It is this unit that is jokingly referred to as the "mixing bowl of doom". The advance unit pictured in the pdf is the type you want. The one-piece unit is known to fall apart.

As to slingers, the only way to check them is to remove the crankshaft. Not difficult but requires special tools which you may or not be able to borrow or hire from a BMW /2 specialist or make yourself to remove rear bearing and to re-install. Do a search for "clean BMW oil slingers" to help you make up your mind. Original guidelines were to check and clean the slingers between 30-50,000 km. You've got a bike that's 47 years old, no knowledge of the true mileage and no knowledge of prior maintenance. Were oil changes done regularly or was the oil just regularly topped-up????

Here is the story of a M-63 restoration http://www.russianiron.com/forums/index ... 15431&st=0 and a M-66 engine rebuild (same as M-63 except for oil filter) http://www.russianiron.com/forums/index ... 15676&st=0




Sorry Greg, I'm going to have to take issue with you there. Ernie Franke did a brilliant job of collating information but , unfortunately, there are many mistakes in some of the documents he collated. The statement that the 'mixing bowl of doom' refers to the PM302-a is the most glaring in the document you have linked to.

There are 3 types of auto advance/retard fitted to Soviet era derived heave motorcycles. On all 3 units, the points mounting and outer housing is the same

PMII..........I have never seen one of these units and references to them are sparce. My knowledge of them is limited to the model number and the odd photo or drawing

PM302 ( often referred to in literature as the PM302-1 in manufacturers literature) KMZ part number PM302 3706000-1.

This is the so called 'mixing bowl of doom' . There are no pictures of it in the collated documents. The cam and bobweight assembly is rivetted together and is supplied as a one piece unit to be bolted straight on to the cam. The pins that anchor the bobweight springs are soft metal and wear very easily. This results in the harder metal of the springs, wearing through the pins and releasing themselves from their anchor points. The whole unit literally flies apart

PM302a. KMZ part number PM302 3706000 . This is the unit most commonly met and is generally very reliable. It differs from the PM302-1 unit in that the cam/bobweight assembly is first slipped onto the camshaft and a `carrier' then follows it as a location device. When this carrier is fitted correctly, the bobweight springs can be viewed through rectangular holes in the assembly

The PM302-1 mixing bowl of doom seems to have been resurrected by the East European sellers ( possibly Chinese copies) but I steer clear of them and will only buy the later PM302a units
Neval BMW/MT11 800cc hybrid, Neval 2wd MT10-36, Neval standard MT10-36, Neval MT16, another MT11, BMW/MB650 hybrid , K750m and an MB750 with locking diff.

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Re: The Big Red One

Postby GregAus » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:52 pm

I realise hat there are a great many errors in Ernie's documents but unfortunately they're the best around in English. I know a few people who have sent him corrections, but they've never been made. Both advance units are (or were recently) being made in Russia, one in Tyumen and the other in Samara (I think). Both are being assembled in the PM302A housing or sold as separate spares. I think the Samara unit is the one piece design but I can't find my notes on it. The Chinese brand TMMP makes a copy of the PM302A and also sells the two-piece advance unit as a separate spare.

I've only ever seen the one piece design on the late model MT-9. I think the vast majority of Australian MT-9 were fitted with the PM05. Some MT-10-36 were fitted with a PM302U (ПМ302У) which seemed identical to the PM302A fitted to Urals. The parts manual for my MT-10-36 shows the PM302 3706000-1 but the workshop manual wiring diagram shows the PM302U and that was what was fitted. Bikes were imported into Australia by a number of importers in different states and there were quite noticeable differences in the same models. I think because they were generally small importations both IMZ and KMZ just slapped together bikes for AVTOEXPORT and used whatever was laying around. Apart from Capital Motors and Sabre Cycles I don't think there were any long term importers.

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Re: The Big Red One

Postby dneprlover » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:22 am

Thanks for that information Greg, I found it very interesting, especially the modern Russian production of the PM302-1. Possibly the early quality control issues have been rectified? I might buy one and try it as I prefer points to any of the modern EI systems.

As far as the mistakes in Ernie's collations go, they are many and varied. Especially over dates,nbut the paperwork is old and much has been learned since they were first prepared. Several years ago, I recommended to a Friend, that he used a diagram from the collection to rewire his MT10-36. He did so , following the diagram exactly, but blew a fuse every time he switched the lights on. Turns out the diagram shows the supply to the rear lamp being tied to earth at the regulator before continuing to the lamp
I Emailed Ernie over this mistake and received a one word reply ' Whatever'. So I guess he feels his task was collation and mistakes aren't his problem. Can't blame the man really, there is a lot of work there and he did a service by putting it all together. Just a shame that information people rely on is not always true
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Re: The Big Red One

Postby MKB » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:34 pm

:beerchug: Pp302 voltage reguator arrived and symbols don’t match up with wiring diagrams. Rather than E RW and b, I have nK ~ W like picture.

Perhaps more important, the existing voltage regulator is a 12 volt (other pic). I’m switching back to 6 volt.
Do symbols translate one to one ?

Assuming “W” on new pp302 goes to “W” on Generator. Old “~” terminal connects to + battery terminal and ignition switch. Are old and new “~” terminals same purpose?
Old “pc” terminal connects to “R” on generator. Is old pc terminal same purpose as new “nK” terminal ?
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1967 Ural M63
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Re: The Big Red One

Postby MKB » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:20 am

I get close to confident and then I think he’ll if I screw this up I’ll fry another electrical component.
And I’m an impatient shopper when it comes to Easter Europe post delivery. Ugh. Patience.
1967 Ural M63
1984 HD Ironhead
1972 Ford F-250 4x4

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Re: The Big Red One

Postby GregAus » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:23 am

The РБ1 is not a relay/regulator so ignore it and it's markings. On the РР302 you've got the symbols are ЛК ~ Ш On your wiring diagramme they correspond to Б Я Ш. Ш goes to Ш, ~ goes to Я. ЛК is Б and goes to the battery + terminal, brakelight switch and ignition switch.

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Re: The Big Red One

Postby MKB » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:05 pm

Thank you GregAus! I was so wrapped around the axle I couldn’t even figure out how to explain it.
By the way, in order for me to not be ineffective, ignorant or inaccurate in the future I wonder how I might get a way to use Cyrillic characters as needed in my posts as you and others do? Is it just an alternate phone setting or a computer tool? I’d rather be accurate and feel/look slightly less rookie-like. Thanks so much for the help!
1967 Ural M63
1984 HD Ironhead
1972 Ford F-250 4x4

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Re: The Big Red One

Postby GregAus » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:03 pm

Using Cyrillic depends on the operating system. In OSX I just select alternative keyboard layouts. For Russian Cyrillic I can use a Russian keyboard layout or Translit Russian. In IOS I have to choose Russian Cyrillic. Similar choices are available for various Windows, Linux and Android OSs. Just search for your OS and Cyrillic keyboard or OS and Cyrillic alphabet.

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Re: The Big Red One

Postby MKB » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:03 am

Got it. Тнаиж уоч
1967 Ural M63
1984 HD Ironhead
1972 Ford F-250 4x4


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