Only a Ural...

Woe unto you that bought the first model year of a major remake, perhaps this section can help address any 2014 and later model Ural "imperfections". Here's a special section for folks with the latest rigs to discuss 2014 and later model-related topics such fuel injection, 3-wheel disc brakes, hydraulic steering dampers, spin-on oil filters and other anomalies that don't belong on true Russsian motorcycle ;-P We've gone from using big hammers and greasy wrenches to needing computers and Ouija boards in order to fix our rigs.
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Please keep this section specific to issues pertaining to 2014 and later models such as fuel injection, sidecar and rear disc brakes and so forth. Ask general or non-2014 and later specific questions in the main Hammerin' & Wrenchin' section.
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Albuquralque
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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby Albuquralque » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:00 am

gobium wrote:Take cable out of equation
Re-start bike to see if promble still persist



Sounds familiar
"Put a little gravel in your travel"

Darrell - Albuquralque
2014 Patrol - Babe the Blue Ox
EFI Map OR 1.02
Throttle Body Vacuum Ports
K&N Air Filter
Raceway 2-into-1 Header (Right Side)
Previous Urals Owned: 2004 Wolf, 2006 Tourist, 2006 Patrol (TOW), 2006 Patrol (TOM)

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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby ddutchman » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:06 am

Peter Pan wrote:Yupp Dutchman,
when a lead butt inside the slider has jumped one step out of its nest, then everything drops to its rest, but the flap(s) will stick open and the throttle gap should have changes to more or less then normal, depending on which butt jumped.
Other option:
As I understand my Kawa and my son's RE fuel injections there are potenciometers on the flaps. (Respectively linear potenciometers on slides) If those get a short inside or at their cables they will tell 0 or 100% to the ECU unit. Asking for that respective fuel injection rate.
Now if the flap would be closed, then the engine would simply die choked due to too much gasoline...air must come from somewhere.

Question: are you 150% sure you have no false air getting into the manifold between butterfy and cylinder?

In every case. go step by step and analyse the whole system.
If you can tilt the flaps by hand more then by the throttle something must be completely out of whack. With throttle you must be able to go from minimum setstrew to 100% open stop plus a bit of slack. if you get with throttle to a stop, and still can turn the flap by hand, then most probable one the other flap's lead butts jumped out of one of its its nests.

In 2014 and 2015 there have been FI butterfly units where the flap used to get stuck. perhaps yours does it too. (I had it on a Honda CB650 carburator bank due to a piece of wood that I picked up in a forest in between the rotary return spring. Once upon the time when my bones and Whicked Willy were younger and a forest was just a nice excercise ground for a 4 cylinder street bike.)

A very dump question: might it be you hooked the throttle cable into the wrong throttle handle nest? Then the gas sticks up 1/3 of a turn. (at least on the Carb Urals we have both nests inside the throttle grip, but only the opener is used. I have no idea if the FI are different or not. )
Ick hoff, dat Di dat hülpt.
Ik hoop dat dat je helpt.
Sven


Hele mooie! Dank Je Wel, Sven- Going to try disconnecting the two throttle cables. If the engine still revs up I will pull the branch pipes to see where the flaps are on start, as long as I can get the bike to stay in neutral so it doesn't launch. :?
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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby ddutchman » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:29 am

Correct me if I am wrong: I am thinking the EFI system on a Ural is pull/demand system rather than the traditional carb push system. IOW, in the olden days, if you opened a throttle/pushed a gas peddle, more gas squirted while the flap/butterfly opened up. In the EFI system of today, the ECU is measuring all kinds of things. If thinks it needs more fuel it tells the system to do things. A cranking engine will create a vacuum, which might be pulling open throttle flaps and doing other things to pull in fuel and air regardless of whether one manually pulls a throttle cable. Is that thinking right?
2017 Sahara "черепаха"
off road package and
Kalaber Creations accessory kit with WARN Winch

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Albuquralque
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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby Albuquralque » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:19 am

ddutchman wrote: A cranking engine will create a vacuum, which might be pulling open throttle flaps and doing other things to pull in fuel and air regardless of whether one manually pulls a throttle cable. Is that thinking right?



Nope..........butterflies are held closed by a spring.
"Put a little gravel in your travel"

Darrell - Albuquralque
2014 Patrol - Babe the Blue Ox
EFI Map OR 1.02
Throttle Body Vacuum Ports
K&N Air Filter
Raceway 2-into-1 Header (Right Side)
Previous Urals Owned: 2004 Wolf, 2006 Tourist, 2006 Patrol (TOW), 2006 Patrol (TOM)

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Peter Pan
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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby Peter Pan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:50 am

Nu bin ick aber jespannt. (nügeerich (Platt)=neugierig ("high"German))
Nu ben ik nieuwsgierig.
The translater tells me that. I always got curious how close my dialect and Hollandish are.
Now I am interested how this thing comes out.
Sophie Travelair
Patrol 2013 with quite a few add-ons from Jim Petitti.(RIP)
8 weeks 12.000km Oregon - Alaska - Oregon, Engine broke free at 21.000km now in CR 39.000km and counting.
With a DIY foam air filter the rig runs well even in tropical rain. The air box looks then like an aquarium. :moto:
Final drives: 1. at 5000km, 2. at 34.000km(+friction plates)

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"The most important you cannot see!"
=> Attitude makes the difference!

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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby hotflash44 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:02 am

Peter Pan,think you said my mothers face looks like the back side of a camel! (in German!) :boogie: :boogie: :cheers:
drive a 2016 gear up asphalt grey .Air America CIA circa 1967/8 Vung Tau Viet Nam USS Tutuila ARG-4 (AND JUST A TOUCH OF AGENT ORANGE!)

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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby Mr Wazzock » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:36 pm

ddutchman wrote:Correct me if I am wrong: I am thinking the EFI system on a Ural is pull/demand system rather than the traditional carb push system. IOW, in the olden days, if you opened a throttle/pushed a gas peddle, more gas squirted while the flap/butterfly opened up. In the EFI system of today, the ECU is measuring all kinds of things. If thinks it needs more fuel it tells the system to do things. A cranking engine will create a vacuum, which might be pulling open throttle flaps and doing other things to pull in fuel and air regardless of whether one manually pulls a throttle cable. Is that thinking right?

Throttle butterflies are purely worked by the twist grip cables, nothing else. All mechanical. No electric motors. ECU's detect angle of butterfly and squirt in the necessary amount of fuel accordingly. Two sensors - cyl. head temp, affects how much fuel to put in; lambda sensor in exhaust headers, to trim mixture strength according to oxygen present in exhaust gas.

The ECU's are also able to detect vacuum, to know which cylinder is beginning the inlet stroke.

So either, throttle butterflies are not fully closing, or, you have an air leak downstream. (inlet ducts)

HTH (?)
Mike H
2016 Ural cT, in glorious terracotta

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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby ddutchman » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:03 pm

Mr Wazzock wrote:
ddutchman wrote:Correct me if I am wrong: I am thinking the EFI system on a Ural is pull/demand system rather than the traditional carb push system. IOW, in the olden days, if you opened a throttle/pushed a gas peddle, more gas squirted while the flap/butterfly opened up. In the EFI system of today, the ECU is measuring all kinds of things. If thinks it needs more fuel it tells the system to do things. A cranking engine will create a vacuum, which might be pulling open throttle flaps and doing other things to pull in fuel and air regardless of whether one manually pulls a throttle cable. Is that thinking right?

Throttle butterflies are purely worked by the twist grip cables, nothing else. All mechanical. No electric motors. ECU's detect angle of butterfly and squirt in the necessary amount of fuel accordingly. Two sensors - cyl. head temp, affects how much fuel to put in; lambda sensor in exhaust headers, to trim mixture strength according to oxygen present in exhaust gas.

The ECU's are also able to detect vacuum, to know which cylinder is beginning the inlet stroke.

So either, throttle butterflies are not fully closing, or, you have an air leak downstream. (inlet ducts)

HTH (?)


Thanks for sharing your expertise! Please explain why when a branch pipe is popped off the engine revs up. Why does the engine not continue to idle? Is there that much more air flow or availability? I can attest that when the pipe slips off and the throttle is at idle the engine revs. What is responsible for that?
2017 Sahara "черепаха"
off road package and
Kalaber Creations accessory kit with WARN Winch

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Peter Pan
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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby Peter Pan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:22 pm

Which hose you open?
If between butterfly and cylinder is a leak the Lambda sensor will say too less gasoline and open up gasoline supply.
Sophie Travelair
Patrol 2013 with quite a few add-ons from Jim Petitti.(RIP)
8 weeks 12.000km Oregon - Alaska - Oregon, Engine broke free at 21.000km now in CR 39.000km and counting.
With a DIY foam air filter the rig runs well even in tropical rain. The air box looks then like an aquarium. :moto:
Final drives: 1. at 5000km, 2. at 34.000km(+friction plates)

The Avatar are 2 rice grains stating life's essence:
"The most important you cannot see!"
=> Attitude makes the difference!

ddutchman
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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby ddutchman » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:29 pm

Peter Pan wrote:Which hose you open?
If between butterfly and cylinder is a leak the Lambda sensor will say too less gasoline and open up gasoline supply.


When either 19 or 20 are not securely clamped the engine will rev up. I have knocked the right one loose twice, and the engine revs up.
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2017 Sahara "черепаха"
off road package and
Kalaber Creations accessory kit with WARN Winch

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Peter Pan
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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby Peter Pan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:58 pm

is the air filter cloged?
The Kawa W800 has an air pressure sensors for elevation and might be a second one after the filter.
Sophie Travelair
Patrol 2013 with quite a few add-ons from Jim Petitti.(RIP)
8 weeks 12.000km Oregon - Alaska - Oregon, Engine broke free at 21.000km now in CR 39.000km and counting.
With a DIY foam air filter the rig runs well even in tropical rain. The air box looks then like an aquarium. :moto:
Final drives: 1. at 5000km, 2. at 34.000km(+friction plates)

The Avatar are 2 rice grains stating life's essence:
"The most important you cannot see!"
=> Attitude makes the difference!

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Wildhorse Cafe
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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby Wildhorse Cafe » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:09 pm

Gobium's Razor!
2011 Patrol Higgs Bison Super Collider formally known as the Orange and Silver Pumpkin Coach
2006 Shinny Black, Tourist, Tatyanna

When you set out on your journey to Ithaca
pray the road is long , full of adventure, full of knowledge
not expecting that Ithaca will offer you riches
Ithaca has given you the beautiful voyage

C.P. Cavafy

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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby ddutchman » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:41 pm

Update: One problem solved. Here are some things I observed and did: 1. Previously I had adjusted the idle at the throttle grip because the idle was too slow when I picked it up. 2. When I removed the branch pipes I could see both butterflies were at about half throttle. Adjusting at the throttle grip back down closed the butterflies; mostly but not all the way. I never did see any obstruction at any cable position. 3. Once the tank was removed the cables still did not move freely. Mind you, I have only had the bike for less than three months, but that only means that the cables should have been lubricated prior to delivery, methinks. So lacking 3 in 1 Oil I used Hoppes thin oil to lubricate the cables. I also moved the splitter so it was between the frame backbone and the U-brace to keep it out of the way. 4. The butterflies now close all the way, and the bike idles like it did on delivery. Too slow. Interestingly, adjusting the cable at the throttle grip like I did the first time did nothing to increase the idle speed. It only served to take up slack in the lever like it is actually designed to do. Makes me think there has always been some interference. Next project is to see if the OBD cable setup I built will actually work, and I might be able to map the engine. Thanks everyone for your great experiential and plain common sense advice! On to the next challenge.
2017 Sahara "черепаха"
off road package and
Kalaber Creations accessory kit with WARN Winch

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Re: Only a Ural...

Postby Donbmw » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:01 pm

Idle screws are at the throttle bodies.
2015 Patrol, 1980 R65, 1982 R65 bought new, 1975 R 90/6, 1959TR3 Triumph

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